Damn, I was hoping La Reine was the bulletproof mom. Her foliage is “nice” soft green but I always prefer dark glossy for everything. The Black Prince is on custom propagation order with Freedom Gardens and I am so so anxious to have it in my possession. It apparently flowers well in warm environments pot bound in Islamabad. It is an uncharted descendant of Alfred Colomb that I hope is fertile. I also got Souvenir du Doctor Jamain because of “fragrance” fomo in a weak moment. I maybe overlooking his importance but having him in the garden he is not giving any indication of giving a damn about what I want from him.
Five Yuan Temple rose though a china, has been growing like a hybrid tea for me and sends out new THICK HYBRID TEA-looking basal canes. I forget that it is a china rose all the time. It also moves to immediately set hips if not deadheaded much like Lavender Pinocchio. I will have to take a picture of its growth habit and post it. The flower is a good shape to indicate “high centered” hybrid tea possibility. It is sending me vibes that I am intuitively interpreting as “I am the progenitor of a new lineage of hybrid teas”
I rejected Frau Karl because she is already everyone’s grandmother or great grandmother. When the time came to select my early "white rose’ gene pool I went with the tea rose Mlle. Sombrieul, Tipsy Imperial Concubine (oh my gawd thank you Marissa that rose is a beauty please be fertile) and a newbie found rose Shui Mei Ren (very sleepy girl for me, only now awakening a little bit). One rose I am lusting for is Comtesse de Cassagne. She is an early enough hybrid tea with an unknown heritage that I just got to have her. She is special and different, something about her my gut is telling me to get her, get her get her!
One special rose that I feel compelled to discuss with you is Rubyait that I found Roses Unlimited had. Excellent vigor and willingness to establish itself quickly. Patchy lineage that includes rare pernetiana’s and no recorded trace of the major superstar hybrid teas. A McCreedy creation. Fertility evidence available as both female and male. The flower is LARGE and thick. Cleans itself after three days Seems like it will go in either direction colorwise. I have it next to Earthsong and Evelyn. The habit is a little lazy and relaxed for a hybrid tea but doesn’t need to be staked. Some very good qualities that I am not sure what I will do with in time. Very blatantly fragrant -No disease pressure on it. Wish it had Belle Story’s stamens. It would be a superb rose with a little bit of work.
Warren Millington (Australian) posted this to a friend’s Facebook page. “When you cross Mutabilis with Belle Story you get this, it is still flowering and will through winter.” and when asked, " Does the characteristic of Mutabilis where its blooms lighten instead of darken carry through?", he responded, “a little but the neverending blooms is the same.”
Mmmm. I must consider it yes. I had seen that but I am only willing to tolerate watering trays of seeds for 2 years for the possibility of a spectacular new rose hybrid- everybody else is getting extracted I think.
I do it all the time to my zinnias and just let the diseased ones die off or bumble through. Some of the afflicted zinnias do make it to flowering even though the foliage sometimes suffers throughout their one-year lifetime. The loses of extracted seedlings can be severe but maybe that is a good omen for fitness? I tried broadcast seeding zinnias this year and only got three seedlings to actually pop up out of at least a dozen sowed seeds.
I’m not scared of the seed extraction idea, what I fear most is not being able to support the babies that are viable and will die needlessly because of my lack of environmental control. I am trying to create ideas on this. Build a substantial indoor grow tent out of Emergency mylar blankets and rigid foam insulation? I have the lighting already but the air circulation vs. humidity is the thing to master, I got dried out collected hips and seeds from around town from the cemeteries and gardens. I took the seeds from the hips of this rose with a gorgeous fragrance which grows (unnamed) in the rose garden of Renzie Park McKeesport PA. A beautiful wafting sweet fragrance on a blush petalled climber of some sort. It’s not New Dawn-I won’t believe it, it’s something else.
I got a whole two dozen or more dried seeds from a huge Peace plant a few blocks down. I will extract them later toward fall after this indoor seedling grow hut has been constructed.
Fertile Triploid like right? Did you see she was mated to a Hulthemia hybrid and created what amounts to a rose Hibiscus? Stunning. Absolutely stunning! I must have her! You got to get her and put it on your hugonis-mother dudley. Oh my gawd. New roses. Totally new rose blooms never seen before. Hulthemia hybrids are gonna add to this too- rock this entire world . someone did a hulthemia hybrid with the Austin rose Carding Mill and created a gorgeous tropical looking thing. Just envision a loose golden copper tea rose bloom with a veiny sweet pink blotch and a big boss of golden stamens emerging from red hugonis bark? You just walk over to your plant and pluck a single flower and put it behind your ear. Done. Game over. The new era of roses has come. Every single person would be instantly in love. There would be so much hunger- people would fall in love with roses all over again. A total craze and absolute nut job craze. The ARS would be forced to name a new class of rose Hugonis-Hulthemia- Pilar Tea Rose or something like that and everybody would rush to bring a version to market. I’m telling you this is the next major evolution of the rose.
The “cryptic dioecy” in Rosa setigera refers not to occasionally being fertile both ways, but rather, the fact that the flowers superficially look like they have functional male and female organs but actually only function as male or female on separate plants, except in extremely rare cases such as those that David Zlesak has documented. Most conventionally dioecious plants have either visibly shrunken male or female organs when those parts are nonfunctional, so you can tell their function just by looking at them, but that’s not so much the case with R. setigera.
I think that if you had three or four R. setigera seedlings, you would probably be likely to get at least one functionally female plant unless you’re very unlucky. If you are able to find it, the almost thornless clone that Vintage Gardens was offering as R. setigera [var.] serena, a name that is not recognized by taxonomists today but still holds horticultural merit, is functionally female. It probably originated from Missouri as well, although the species ranges well to the north and east. The species and its near hybrids have never shown any signs of RRD here, and more needs to be done to identify and conserve its remaining wild germplasm. Oh, and I am pretty thoroughly in agreement with others that Himmelsauge in commerce is really Russelliana.
Your second question regarding #5 might have been directed more at other folks; I haven’t been working deliberately at crossing species with triploids because, honestly, I don’t think that ploidy is all that crucial of a consideration for such matters. Ploidy does impact the optimal direction of a cross if there happens to be a difference in the parents’ chromosome count. Using pollen from the higher-ploidy parent will usually generate more offspring, but some (maybe many) of the seedlings from such a mating will have odd ploidy (i.e. triploids). Working in the reverse direction (using pollen from the parent with the lower chromosome number) tends to result in a much lower successful fertilization rate and far fewer seedlings, but more of those seedlings that do appear may have arisen from unreduced pollen, having twice the genetic contribution from the lower ploidy parent. Fertile triploids may simply be more flexible parents by way of producing a somewhat lower ratio of normal to unreduced pollen or egg cells.
I had a plant of Five Yuan, but didn’t have quite such good luck with it as others here apparently have; a few other tea roses have proven to be much better for me. Hybrid Perpetuals are pretty much all terrible plants here when it comes to disease resistance. La Reine is no exception. While American Beauty is regarded by a small number of people as a healthier HP, I’ve tried to grow what was supposed to be the real one, and it was no healthier than any other here. However, Climbing American Beauty, an unrelated modern climber that basically blooms once annually and is sometimes confused with the earlier HP American Beauty, tends to be very healthy even in very challenging climates.
I have grown too many seedlings from crosses where the seed parent clearly contributed the lion’s share of the disease resistance or flower form to the offspring to believe that there is any sort of sex-based bias regarding the pollen parent in rose breeding. While traits like disease resistance and flower form could be contributed equally by either parent, and some parents might transmit those traits more reliably than others, I cannot accept that any actual cross direction bias is involved.
While I could not see abandoning aesthetic considerations, I do select heavily for fragrance whenever possible and will always heavily favor fragrant seedlings over non-fragrant or faintly scented siblings from the same cross, and design most of my crosses with the goal of fragrant offspring along with other desired characteristics in mind. It doesn’t seem to me that fragrance is automatically deleterious to most other traits, other than possibly petal substance/floral longevity; even in that case, it’s only an issue because thick petals last longer but tend to have greater difficulty releasing fragrance molecules. It seems to me that fragrance simply hasn’t been a breeding and selection priority for all rose breeders.
There is no reason that a rose could not produce both fragrant stamens similar to those of R. moschata and fragrant petals. R. moschata itself does this, and some of its hybrids do, too. One large-flowered variety with that capability is Souvenir de St. Anne’s. However, it’s not clear how many generations away from R. moschata you could go without losing the stamen fragrance altogether. It’s also important to note that the scent produced by the stamens is only really present in the early part of the first day that the flower opens. As the stamen fragrance fades, the petal-borne scent increases. You’ll rarely experience both at equal volume at the same time.
As far as breeding an “ideal” rose that has stunning blooms, a beautiful plant habit, cold hardiness, excellent disease resistance, fragrance, and all of the other qualities one could possibly hope for, it’s always good to have that picture of theoretical perfection in mind–even though we may very well fail to achieve all of those goals as individuals. I suspect that the hope of combining all of the best qualities that roses possess as a genus is what drives many rose breeders. At the same time, practical considerations should also be allowed to enter into the picture. Things like ease of propagation and the appearance of the plant in a relatively small container (say, a one-gallon or two-gallon “can”) at the point of sale might seem trivial, but could make or break the success of a new variety. Some of the greatest rose breeders have been pragmatists as well as dreamers.
Thank you for clarifying some of my misconceptions about the strategies to employ when conceptualizing the approaches to rose hybridization.
When conceiving my strategies for potential parents to utilize to arrive at an idealized goal I need to let go of the notion that I can slap a flower type onto a healthy mother using a particularly handsome dad. Done.
I have corrected that notion in my planning and I am thankful that you interjected.
The correction I have made is to attempt to breed two complimentary lineages both of which at least have the latent information to produce my ideal in the next generation. ANYONE READING THIS PLEASE INTERJECT WITH CORRECTIVE STATEMENTS.
Let us use the example of another ICONIC ROSE FORM that does not yet exist. The elusive “Large White Soft Mossed Very Fragrant Everblooming Rose”. Such a rose would ignite the rose-growing community and create an incredible response much like the iconic rose I imagine could result from Kim’s Hugonis Hybrids. Or the entry of a new singularly spectacular fragrant blood red hybrid tea with a little something extra.
This Rose must remain WHITE and have an impressive soft heavy moss. A touch of blush, a hint of apricot or some warm veining would not destroy the effect but Pink must be avoided at all costs because- I have maybe erraneously gathered but I think not- Pink is the dominant color information that is transmitted by roses and it will make it near impossible to ever return to white? (I also understand that a “pure” white is very difficult to receive because it is very easy for the coloration to sully to unattractive shades)
The strategy to employ is to gather the prospective parent group that had some evidence of fertility
From everything that I read from this archive and had the capacity to understand-Mossing is very much connected to a proclivity to thorniness- therefore I gathered these roses as well
Having Cinnamomeae laxa, roxburghi and spinossissima heritage this is a relatively upright cutflower-type Buck shrub that has performed in my garden thus far. The daughter of this sire is Earth Song a thorny grandiflora that has yet to bloom for me and thus may not be a candidate however she does “sport” and breed white flowers.
I would like to add to this pool with these 2 perhaps:
These flowers are huge and supposedly fragrant and very light blush, whitish, maybe pale apricot.
Comtesse de Cassagne was a work of Pierre Guillot which means to me that it is extremely likely she was derived from the heritage of La France, Safrano, Juane Desprez, Mdme. Caroline Testout, Madame Falcot etc. That is what he worked with. Practically a virgin hybrid tea rose.
Lorenzo Pahissa is almost a Pernetiana rose but the seed parent is unnamed. He has vigor on his side but probably a proclivity to blackspot. He is a creation of the Catalonians from which the Golden Moss by Dot arose.
Bucks rose is disease resistant thus far.
Neither of the Mosses are repeat blooming but have the Autumn Damask rebloom genetics (which means very little to me)
Both the mosses and the Bucks possess the father-daughter connection. As unappealing as that may be for animal husbandry I will look the other way and have two lineages (fingers crossed) that posses repeat blooming genetics, are white (fingers crossed), have moss genetics latent within them (?)
What happens next from a logical perspective? Am I on my own to breed the Buck-Quatre Saison Blanc offspring to the two Outliers antique hybrid teas and hope for moss and huge flowers? I will anyways but for expediency would it help to rely on the foetida latent in Lorenzo Pahissa and breed him to a very thorny pimp hybrid before attempting to hybridize him to the baby Buck-Quatre Saison Blanc primogenitors? What is logical and MORE LIKELY to arrive at this ideal? I am just generating ideas and working to correct ANY misconceptions that I may be harboring on the order of operations to rose hybridization. Help me… and all the silent prowlers on this website understand the order of operations here
I know you didn’t sign up for this. ANYONE IS FREE TO COMMENT! No one
will be held liable for anything. Any clarity or indication of direction is very much appreciated.
I already have:
Quatre Saison Blanc (doing great here)
Prairie Star
Earth Song
A promise for Lorenzo Pahissa next season
Instinctually I know that Comtesse de Cassagne is the rose I need to mother the successful large white repeating moss. She is probably the daughter of Frau Drushki the seed mother of the Golden Moss. I just have a feeling about it.
I have decided that working with Setigera will not be on my dinner plate anytime soon. The plants are too large and I have an offer for more exciting species hybrids to work with. It will have to be on someone else to take up that whole issue.
Here are 2 nice pictures of Florange in Bloom. Sorry for the delay.
The foliage is not perfect but it really is not the roses fault. She is in a very less than ideal spot. The coloration is very beautiful and quite nice. NO FRAGRANCE but the color! In a hybrid tea/cut rose breeding program she would be indispensible to have on hand as this rose is very fertile comparatively.The bloom form is very flattish as you see.
This rose has some kind of Fedtschenkoana heritage and has twiggy-ness going for it. Not the color and texture I want to work with but the genetics for “bark” is there. All the first generation offspring listed come up as red or other more specific descriptions of red coloration “Scarlet” “Vermillion” Nice! Honestly I will probably try to mate her to OGR’s like nuits de young, leda and indigo at some point just to see what happens. They really need some stem rigidity and this plant has stem turgidness. Some of my baby teas are also too floppy but supposedly they outgrow that, Examine more here:
I would think that if you want to work on a white moss, starting with “white bath” would be the way to go. It has heavy mossing and is repeat flowering. I cant speak to its disease resistance, but i think it has lovely foliage and the flowers are gorgeous too. It has been on my list of roses to get for years, but i havent been able to get it yet (for those of you who might have pollen, i would absolutely love some). I like your ideas and look forward to seeing what you will produce!
Thank you for your input. I admire the seedlings you have been producing and it gives me a lot of inspiration and optimism to witness how quickly you have gone from pondering acquiring roses to producing hybrid seedlings. Well done, really inspirational.
That rose is listed on Marissa’s list at Greenmantle.
It’s never a problem with roses from the last 100+ ish years because of the rapid transformation of tastes and the insane level of commercial breeding that occurred during this time period but this rose- being from the early 1800’s -and not having one listed seedling descendent, is waving huge red flags for me. In all that time and upheaval and disruption SOMEONE would have registered, mentioned, germinated an OP hip or something BUT- I don’t know everything. Is this a rose that this archive has mentioned as a viable parent? Does someone know something about its fertility that I am missing?
You guys let me blab on about Basye’s Purple Rose and no one bothered to tell me that Barden created a purple rose with the foliolosa https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.62352.1 thus disproving another misconception I had internalized. His is probably fertile. Kim at least interjected with a statement that indicated infertility. We are gonna have a bunch of hack amateurs running around out there- this forum is the contemporaneous authority on the topics we discuss and there is no other game in town I have to inform you.
The offspring from White Bath is a sport, not a seedling. So, switch to Four Seasons White Moss (sport of Autumn Damask). It has ONE SEEDLING offspring, so you know breeding is possible.
Lou Stoddard (1980) wrote an article about his experiences with ‘Orangeafde’ that is worth reading. http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/StoddardOrangeade1980.html
Among other details, he wrote “Overall in petal count, 90% were single to semi-double. Petals were very consistently short in length. In their favor, they were also consistently wide and possessed excellent crisp substance.”
Wide petals is a valuable trait also found in ‘Crimson Glory’ and ‘Cathrine Kordes’, ancestors of ‘Orangeade’.
I have admired ‘Orangeade’ in San Jose, CA and Lexington, KY. I don’t recall any blackspot, though Stoddard did mention it.
Thanks, Karl. Orangeade is clean where humidity isn’t high and black spot pressure great. It doesn’t do well where they are. I loved it. You could pollinate it with dirt! It was the only rose I could consistently get to accept Fedtschenkoana pollen which is why I further used Dottie Louise with it as it was half Orangeade. Where it’s happy, it’s a striking rose.
While it is theoretically possible to raise a seedling with flowers similar to an otherwise unhealthy parent and good health from another parent in one generation, it takes either a particularly harmonious combination or an especially useful healthy parent (one that passes along such good health with a certain frequency), along with some luck, to pull that off. Most of the time you can’t really predict the outcome of a pairing before it has been tried, and there is often extreme variation even among the siblings from the same cross. Some breeders will try a variety of different exploratory crosses at the same time in order to increase their chances and maximize the amount they learn about unfamiliar parents or pairings; if one proves to be particularly successful, it may be worth repeating. Other than looking at the pedigrees of existing roses, that’s the only way to learn which parents and parental combinations might give you the best results. You can’t be too formulaic about your approach to breeding roses until then; far too little is known, especially when it comes to those less well-trodden paths. Even if you set off in one direction, you might discover something among the results of your crosses that is just as wonderful or intriguing as anything you had hoped to find, but that may be very different from what you had envisioned initially.
I like the idea of a rose with large, interestingly colored blooms and attractive, twiggy architecture with age. That certainly wouldn’t be ideal for all gardens or gardeners, but it would be perfect for some. Of course, depending on the number of seedlings and their sizes, it may require a substantial amount of space to carry all the way to the point of final selection and introduction if seedling selection is based partly or largely on mature plant habit. A healthy modern white moss would certainly have its fans as well–especially if the mossing makes it any less desirable to deer. It seems like that could be a challenging and fun goal to pursue in any case. The white mosses that exist aren’t necessarily the healthiest lot, and you may find that you need to dig deeper than Buck roses for blackspot resistance. Since thin, white petals are especially attractive to thrips, you might also want to select for petal substance.
While crossing only pale or white roses together will probably give you the greatest number of white-flowered or nearly white-flowered offspring, you can certainly get seedlings in that color range from other combinations. I think that it was McGredy who said that it isn’t necessary to breed for white roses because they will appear with some frequency among the offspring anyway–a comment that might not take into account the full spectrum of current breeding goals. However, it’s true that white-flowered seedlings can and do appear from crosses where one or more parents are not, although that’s not the case for all roses or all matings. I’ve gotten numerous white-flowered seedlings from white x pink crosses and from pink x yellow crosses, for instance. As with all other traits you’re breeding for, looking at the known offspring of a variety is one way to know what sorts of colors it might be capable of producing via crossing, and the other way is to try something and see for yourself, and then repeat what works. That is a recurring theme in rose breeding.
Favorite Hybrid Tea Roses in Florida
MRS. H. K. WOODRUFF, Cocoa, Florida
Perhaps I should have added Antoine Rivoire to the best four roses. Its foliage is absolutely disease-proof, as compared to most Florida roses. It seldom “thrips,” which is most unusual in so light a rose, and it is beautiful in every stage of development. I do not like the descriptions of this rose — they never do it justice. I think it is enough to say that it is a very delicately shaded light pink, of medium size and unusual and perfect form. It doesn’t do so well the first year as the first four roses mentioned, but, with reasonable care it should be blooming lavishly the second fall, and sometimes it lasts for years. It is very distinctive with its light green wood and fine foliage.
Thank you! I absolutely love Antoine Rivoire and even Ophelia. That lineage seems superb. Never saw them in person but they look incredible.
Antique Rose Emporium had this rose at some point but I am confident that it has not been offered for over a one year period and they just changed ownership.
I have many multiflora rootstocks settling in. Have a few Dr. Hueys settling in too. Went out to the countryside on my friend’s land and dug out very healthy specimens.
Marissa has had Ophelia on her “on hold” list the entire time I have known about her master list. Marissa’s list is not current she told me so. Some have been lost.
I have a hard copy of Roses Unlimited and Burlings lists and it does not appear in either.
I have a heater cable rooting table set up and the aquarium mister just came in from Temu. I’ve got to finish building the humidity enclosure.
Antoine Rivoire is a legendary rose at this point. We know about it but it is not accessible to us. I crowdsourced roses on Houzz and got very good responses. I have also identified the following fertile roses that are no longer in commerce-
Duquessa de Penaranda
Belle Story AUSTIN
Soliel d’Or and Juliet
The following list is for rare roses that are only occasionally offered but people are still recieving them and growing them successfully. High Aesthetic value. The submitted photos look very foliage healthy.
Souvenir du President Carnot (father of New Dawn)
Betty by Dickson
Autumn and anecdotally President Herbert Hoover
Lundy Lane Yellow
Comtesse de Cassagne (I’m greedy and I want this rose)
I’ve tried many times for Radiance but no one has it.
Etoile de Feu has a decendent and red stem bark. Marissa has this–maybe
Frederico Casas is relatively fertile Burling only occassionally has specimens.
The Black Prince Hybrid Perpetual
Rippletoe’s Bohemian Rhapsody (I’m greedy and I want this rose- Cardinal Hume Performs for me no disease its just the bugs like to eat his leaves )
Pam from Angel Gardens has Cels Multiflore and I am getting it.
James MIlls from K&M has Troilus the Duchesse de Montebello offspring that repeat blooms and has flawless blossom form and performance.
Steve the big bear a hybridizer from England suggested that the best seed setter for OGR is Coupe De Hebe by his own experience. This is available from Rogue Valley now.
Hebe’s Lip is the recommendation from our own archive as it stands now.
We should perhaps start a new thread about all the found China’s that have occurred over the decades and a new thread about the insane mislabelling of Tea roses and how to tell what you actually ended up with if there is sufficient knowledge still available to archive.
I love the intersection of Tea and Chinas and see them as breeding material but unfortunately I only have resources for the 2 Tea- Noisettes that I selected more for aesthetics than breeding. Madame Alfred Cariere and Juane Desprez
I have this plant from Rose Petals Nursery Laffay’s Camellia. It’s good. Very good. Beautiful Twiggy -A China-Noisette?
I would love a thread on the early hybrid teas 1890-1910
Sir I love red stem and twiggy with glossy leaves. Please make any suggestions and regale me with any rose you have observed. I am rose greedy I want them. I will grow them. Help Me Find sir.
