Experiences with Orangeade

General Discussion
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Oh Hey! You are a collected breeder. Look what I got last year! It was almost winter, almost cold and I had them ship out this single band. This rose is HARD TO GET!

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It smells pretty darn good I must say. Old rose-y but without the burning soapiness I got from Indigo or Madame Isaac Periere more "pure " and “earthy”. I am growing this one out right next to Maggie, La Reine, Aloha, a tiny baby Crimson Glory, Mother Dudley and Five Yuan Temple Rose currently.

I am also doing the "pot ghetto’ thing. Someday I will have my 2 acres, but maybe not here. I actually want to live up on Haleakala on Maui or maybe on the slopes of Hana/Kapo.

I saw your Nymph Series of rose photos by Viru and also your Hugonis cross. You broke a species rose with a random hybrid tea it would seem? Do you feel it was luck, determination, effort in high standards of cultivation? Please opine. I beleive in gut instinct and I read the scientific papers to know what NOT to do but aside from that… I am trying to break the Wingthorn Rose, Manners repeating Palustris, and perhaps the single Chestnut. I assembled a large arsenal. It seems to me that you have been working toward this trend of warm tropical looking loose flower forms.

I believe that a combination of factors from social desires for self-sufficient lifestyles, climate patterns, and economic disruption and reinvention will culminate into an era where the most desirable and beauteous rose form will be the large fragrant open golden apricot blush rose with a large boss of exposed stamens. The flower form will be large and loose. It will have substantial petal thickness and exhibit excellent shading with obvious bicolor veining. If Moore’s hulthemia can be worked in perhaps multiple colors. The plants will be somewhat twiggy, upright and airy with relatively few glossy leaves. I’m a designer and I am willing to put in the work to achieve this vision in time… :sweat_smile:

Fragrance will not be compromised. Fruit-sweet-clove-spice-musk are what my nose can smell as “wafting” aroma and that is what I will work to achieve. Did you ever get to experience the fragrance of Rippletoe’s Bohemian Rhapsody? Stephanie from Roses Unlimited said they still have a mother plant but they would only do it as a custom propagation. Sweet pea is not a fragrance I am entirely familiar with. It seems like such a bother to everyone anymore to ask them to supply rose specimens. Anna Pavlova is another rose which some had said has a truly amazing fragrance. It was on your list for your lost garden. Did it leave an impression on you? Other than fragrance I have little interest in it.

I have other goals with roses but so far as aesthetic movements go the culmination of one ideal tends to bring about the exultation of its near exact opposite in the following cycle. If the prior movement placed the maximum petal count formality of the reinvented old european rose garden hedge on the pedestal then the next aesthetic movement will seek out a relaxed exotic form rose, a flamboyant and lush multi-colored rose on an open and airy upright small bush and perhaps even thin pilar roses that would be capable of being contained to a large pot with a simple stake support.

Currently I live in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania. It’s my hometown but I have lived all over the continental US in my time. If I leave again it will be for the islands. I am a first-year member of the rose society here but they are still utilizing Covid era remote meeting procedures so it has not been the social opportunity I was hoping to bring into my life.

Belle Story is an important rose to my goals. From it’s few decendents it passes on the boss of stamens better than any other rose that possesses this trait. Dainty Bess kinda demonstrates this ability but she seems to limit the petal count to singles while doing so and lacks the tendency to produce the inverse bloom form. I already have a beautiful collection of fertile “splayer” roses to play with.

Honeysweet is problematic for those who demand spotless foliage. Her splayed and spent bloom is gorgeous for unreasonable numbers of days on the bush in the heat and sun and I love the color and thickness of her leaves. I will work on it somehow. I agree Buck is not the stamp of health that many associate with his lineage but his plants are sturdy.

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Orangeade and Florange are about to bloom. I will post a photo update tomorrow.

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I hope you enjoy “Joyberry”. It does smell GOOD! I’d hoped using Blueberry, it would be prickle-free. NOPE. Oh, well. The Nymph roses are Viru’s. I’ve not even grown them. I enter their roses for them on Help Me Find and post photos when Girija asks, so they show as mine, but the description gives her the credit. Lovely people! I use a Jim Sproul miniature he shared with me a few years ago. It breeds like a fertile triploid and you get some REAL interesting results! It’s the only rose R. Minutifolia has ever successfully crossed with and LIVED. The first generation seems to include Minutifolia genes and selfs prove it. The L56Min seedlings listed on HMF show the results. Ralph Moore pointed the way with this. 'Golden Angelcalnana' Rose Then, look at this. 'Golden Angel X “R. Soulieana - Ralph Moore’s putative version”' Rose Golden Angel is a fertile triploid. It inherited the triploid character from Mary Wallace through Golden Glow. Perhaps Peachy White may be triploid, but I can’t prove it. Torch of Liberty is a fertile triploid (Golden Angel X ORANGEADE) as is Lynnie (Torch of Liberty X Basye’s Legacy). If you want to crack the odd species, look for the fertile triploids. Interesting many of Radler’s and Buck’s roses are triploids, isn’t it? April Moon is a fertile triploid. Flower Carpet is triploid. Baby Love, Home Run, Blue for You, Eyes for You…all fertile triploids. Oh, as is Iceberg, BTW. I wonder if Belle Story is? Have you inquired in your rose society if anyone has it?

Yes, I’m familiar with Robert’s Bohemian Rhapsody. Pavlova and its white sport, Sir Fredrick Ashton, were nice and smelled good, but didn’t impress me as being any better (or worse) than MANY others in that garden for scent.

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Orangeade bloomed but Florange did not. We might be getting rain and gray clouds we will see how it goes.

It looks good. It has been a dry year thus far and perhaps that is why foliage is looking so good but a good hardwood mulch for an in-ground plant might produce similar results although I find that insect infestation is the primary determinant of whether the foliage begins to downgrade or not. Aphid pressure has been horrible this year. I have gone so far as to wash plant foliage with mild bar soap to remove the aphid honeydew but it doesn’t really help as much as I would like. Mildew sucks but it doesn’t keep any of my roses from sending out blooms. Plenty of blooms actually for first/second year bands.

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Thank you for your input. Fertile triploids have proven to be the best candidates to break a species rose. I have double knock-out and Cornelia. No one in my area has Belle Story. She has Iceberg in her heritage.

I am going to write numbered statements that I have synthesized from what I gleaned during deep dives on this association’s archive and even the old site.

When you encounter a statement that you refute the material or empirical truthfulness of please interject with a corrective statement. Everyone is free to refute and interject please.

  1. Species roses are typically diploid with some notable exceptions ie Setigera

  2. Species roses are classified into “sections” ex. canina, synstylae, pimpinellifoliae etc. Prospective parents from the same “section” are more likely to mate with each other and produce viable offspring.

  3. ??Hybrid roses with lineages that include species roses from the same “sections” ARE MORE LIKELY to mate with each other and produce viable offspring??

  4. Triploids are anomalies. They can result from hybridizations between diploids and tetraploids.

  5. The only way to determine if a rose is a triploid is for a lab to cut a section of bud and observe its meiosis?? and also flow cytometry. Triploidy has no physical manifestation in plant architecture or other physical traits.

  6. The mating of two diploids regardless of hybrid status or species -MAY produce an anomalous Triploid.

  7. Mating tetraploids to each other is a bad idea. The excess genetic information creates a situation where desirable traits are not passed on reliably to the next generation. Subsequent generations may express traits unexpectantly.

  8. Assuming pollen viability-Male fertility and ability to fertilize is strongly influenced by the size and shape of pollen granules and their match to the female mate’s “receptacle”. Some difficult crosses can be overcome by washing pollen in “acetone”.

  9. Male partners have "more prominent’ influence on flower shape and disease resistance.

  10. Fragrance is primarily a result of volatile oils within the petals. Less often from the stamens (moschata) The colorants within the petals can also be volatile in some hybrids and emit fragrance as they “degrade”.

  11. Fragrance is NOT a trait that can be concentrated in the manner that hybridizers concentrate pigments for flower color.

Thank-you for any response.

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I don’t know if fertile triploids are the BEST candidates for breaking down a species, but they’ve certainly created some VERY interesting results and L56-1, which breeds like a triploid and very well may be one, is the only rose I have ever successfully mated with R. Minutifolia and raised healthy, fertile offspring. Even more importantly, it, and Lynnie (also triploid) are the only mates whose offspring have LIVED.

#5. I believe it’s possible to actually count the chromosomes under magnification. I’ve not done it, but read here of those who have.

#7. Mating tetraploids isn’t a bad idea. If you’re shooting for HT’s, it’s probably the main thing you can do.

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Just a thought about oranges, have you tried Adobe Sunrise? It’s a beautiful orange and very healthy for me. Also, my sister lives in a high disease pressure climate and she is very fond of Adobe Sunrise’s parent Singin’ In The Rain/Spek’s Centennial, so perhaps there might be some disease resistance there?

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Welcome back, MillenialGardener!

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Thank you for the suggestion. :slightly_smiling_face: I examined this variety and have noted it is attainable from Heirloom. I like its color and the flower form is nice. I will consider it in time if my goals progress in the direction I am trying to make them go.

@MillenialGardener It seems that to truly bring a “new rose” into the world each and every one of us must SIMULTANEOUSLY be working with species roses, crossing them to “fertile triploids” or each other to create the approximate plant shape (architecture) we want or perhaps we will happily stumble onto a “uniqueness” we love and appreciate.–AND THEN–we would use the seedling offspring that we also developed at the same time from our “modern favorites” to get the flower shape types and colors we actually want.

The species/species hybrids we develop will be the mothers and give our new roses the growth habits, vigor, architecture we want and the “dads” we produce from our actual favorite roses will donate pollen to influence and push the final flower forms and colors that we desire the most. IDEALLY but be prepared for comprimise.

I think I should create a new topic thread under Categories headlines “Ancestral Roses” or perhaps “Founder Hybrids” to glean more information from the experienced breeders present that is formatted in the same numbered statements/ refute and corrective statement format.

We can move to discuss in more amateur and layman terms the experiential knowledge of what breeders have seen firsthand when two species/first generation hybrids of species are brought together. I will have to consider for a few days the most expedient format for such a discussion.

The point of this would be to gather in one posting the first hand knowledge of what seedling architectures and qualities were observed when the major species were brought together.

I understand that every breeder had a selective goal at the forefront of their minds but even just an anecdotal retelling of what someone(s) observed when hugonis was mother and rugosa was father- for example -would allow us all to move in the “breeder rose acquisition stage” with more of a sense of certainty. We are all not wide open books on wide open paths -welcome to any experience that happens to come our way. I will work for a plant that has pretty bark, is twiggy looking and eventually content myself.

Roses are already HARD TO GET. Too many people just using double knock-out to produce the next generation and kordes brand mildew proof rose of 2023 is EXACTLY the same conditions that lead to the degradation and inbreeding of the worst of the Hybrid Teas and will be even more disastrous in the next iteration of disease pressure because disease pressure also evolves with the target plant and possibly because the species origins of these rose hybrids will prove to be a poor match to changing environmental conditions in a new climate cycle. (There was a paper discussed in the deep dives of this archive where they discussed how native roses “move” throughout the landscape on a mass scale and they basically have sex with each other at the boundaries of major climatic zones and the vigorous offspring slowly make their way through the “hinterlands” to the next major boundary line and then attempt to have sex again and are transformed again by that sex. Ploidy is the transmission mechanism as discussed above.

I wasted so much time trying to figure out what species to work with in a long term commitment that I am still not even remotely certain that I even want to involve myself with it. I got Roxburghi Normalis that someone on here at least had interesting results crossing to Monsieur Tillier a nice tea rose that someone from this dimension might actually enjoy. It is a beautiful tree like plant in maturity but who knows what people see hybrids grow into in time?

I was fascinated with the Wingthorn Rose “Sericea” and secured a specimen -only to discover that the members here had incredible difficulty in producing seeds from it and it was very selective and that remarkable thorns would not express in further generations.

Banksia crosses are supposedly rare but this site is filled with tales of super vigorous root system hybrids of this species that grew so large they had to be abandoned.

Kim Ruperts Hugonis crosses have beautiful stem bark like the plant I envision but what good does that do if there is no opinion on the transmission traits being successful more likely than not because of the unique partners in the crossing etc? Has twiggy growth been observed with viable crosses of this species to other “available” triploids? A breeder might know or have seen something.

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Rosa foliolosa Nutt. f. alba species rose was mother to a rugosa fathers hybrid seedling and produced a simple rose that is a rich dark purple even with purplish foliage that repeat blooms?!. No other evidence exists that this species mother will produce anything remotely as remarkable without that father influence. Basye’s Purple rose offspring continue to exhibit purple coloration.

Only an indepth collection of anecdotal observations will help new breeders decide. But how to format a Q and A that is expedient. I don’t want to sound mean-- I am merely trying to bring people on board and move discussion in a direction that is useful to all of us potential new breeders who are already struggling with the commitment necessary to produce something meaningful to our individual goals.

Envisioning and prioritizing your ideal “long term” plant is important to making the most of this opportunity You may have many goals but what do you want to give the world of roses that you will not compromise? Who will you name your roses for?etc. etc.

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member Roseus has been kind enough to send a very good list of the species roses divided/classified/segmented into their accepted sections when asked. Remember that species roses and even hybrids are more likely to reproduce successfully with each other if they share common ancestors in their species section.

Perhap’s all members survey is in order to “discover” what species roses members are feeling intrigued by/ dedicated enough to consider using? It may be helpful to have a trimmed list of species of interest that is absent those that are not even available to members or not of particular interest. They are already hard to get I know.

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Those new orange-colored Kordes varieties Plazbo mentions look very good to me in photos, particularly KORosobi. I hope that one will appear on our shores. Noack’s rose Westzeit has evidently been behind quite a few of their yellow/orange shrubs with reportedly high blackspot resistance. The most recent Kordes orange that I’ve grown is Tangerine Skies (KORtangenu), but unfortunately it completely shuts down both flowering and growing very early in the season for me. Although their roses are by no means a monolithic group overall, some other Kordes offerings do seem to behave similarly.

Kordes roses have been quite the mixed bag here when it comes to health. The company’s dedication to selection for disease resistance is still very much appreciated, although they should really consider setting up a test site somewhere in my neighborhood if they want to know what their roses are actually made of!

Speaking of Kordes, I wonder if Independence/Kordes’ Sondermeldung might not have more to offer as a source for orange in breeding. After all, if it produced Orangeade, and no one has used it much since the 1950s and 1960s, maybe it could do new and interesting things today when crossed with certain healthy modern offerings.

Spiritstonesilver, I have a few comments/opinions to add regarding your numbered list:

#1 - While it may be that a majority of rose species are diploid (and that is generally thought to be the “preferred” number for most species), quite a healthy number are not. However, R. setigera is actually among the diploid species.

#5 - There are some physical characteristics that are commonly associated with triploidy in plants, such as greater vigor and flower production and reduced fertility. None of those is exclusively linked to triploidy and could not serve as a way of directly determining chromosome number, though, and as has already been covered well, triploid roses can be surprisingly fertile (but most of us should be very glad that triploid bananas aren’t.)

#7 - I agree with Kim.

#9 - I have not personally found that male parents have any greater influence on flower shape or disease resistance than the female parent.

#11 - I don’t think that the inheritance of fragrance is understood well enough at this point to even compare it to what is known about the inheritance of flower color. That said, it’s almost certainly different and more complex, and why would anyone expect it be the same? There seem to be far more rose fragrances than there are colors, assuming they aren’t just described generically.

Stefan

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@Spiritstonesilver the only thing I ever got Basye’s Purple to mate with was Yellow Jewel. All were once-flowering, incredibly angular, tremendously prickly, white and single. I dumped all five or six seedlings after three years. That was probably thirty years ago. I’m glad you’re enjoying the Hugonis seedlings.

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Thank-you very much for your thoughtful and lengthy reply!!!

Got it. Setigera is a diploid. Are you willing to opine on a procedure for new breeders to acquire plants of the Setigera species rose? Small plants are able to be acquired through this nursery at a very reasonable price https://mowildflowers-net.3dcartstores.com/Climbing-Prairie-Rose-Rosa-setigera_p_230.html. There is a problem- this species is “cryptically dioecious” meaning??? the plants are either male or female fertile but some may be fertile both ways? How many individual specimens would one need to purchase to ensure that they recieved a receptive partner? Some scientific literature I glanced through indicated this species may possess traits that would breed roses that were resistant to RRD. Will you opine on that topic? Himmelauge is what exactly? Lost Geshwind setigera hybrid or available from Burlington nursery and others? (I bought it and I don’t even care cause if it is a monsterous multiflora Russeliana I have plenty of things to attempt rebloom with just for fun.)

#5 Thank you for clarifying, will you name “commercially available female fertile triploids” that you have personally used or “seen the physical offspring of” that conferred desirable traits to primitive rose hybrids? Can you name an example of any **female fertile triploid rose mated to a species rose- that did not obfuscate the obvious desirable aesthetic traits of the species regardless of the likelihood that such a result were ever to be reproduced by any other cross?

#7 My book learning and Frasier Valley Rose youtube video larnin’ has taught me that the hybrid tea’s were selected from the offspring of crosses between hybrid perpetuals and China roses (but not the original 4 stud chinas of legend?). Martin and Ryx discovered a china rose unbeknownst to the west in the 90’s that goes by the name of Five Yuan that I have secured. It has excellent vigor and disease resistance. I have a collection of the “healthiest” (in my opinion) hybrid perpetuals La Reine, Alfred Colomb, The Black Prince (a seedling of Alfred Colomb). There is nothing to be gained by crossing these to produce a new tetraploid Hybrid Tea and then using that “fresh rose blood” to reinvigorate hybrid tea crosses? You will not break my heart if you tell me that is a dumb idea. Five Yuan is valuable for many crosses and La Reine’s flowers last forever and she is fertile.

#9 Is there any trait that you have observed or intuitively sensed, regardless of your commitment to scientific principles of objectivity, that you would be willing to state that “you believe” or “have become suspect because of your specific experiences” that male partners contribute to the offspring more frequently than the mother selection?

#11 Has anyone ever attempted to select for powerful fragrance as the most important selection criteria abandoning even acceptable aesthetics- that you have seen in your career whether roses or not? Do you believe that fragrances contribute to disease pressure/ that fragrance is deletrious to other traits related to health, fertility and vigor? Will you opine on the likelihood that a selective breeding program between a moschata-type rose that emits fragrance from the stamens with a partner that undeniably emits strong fragrance from the essential oils within the petals could result in a rose that emits strong fragrance from both?

Thank-you for any response!

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It is my understanding that the first generation of hybrid teas were actually hybrid perpetuals x teas, but I am still learning as well. That is something I’m working on this spring, crossing Marie Van Houtte (about the only tea I’ve found that won’t die in Zone 6) with a variety of HP’s, including Alfred Colomb and La Reine.

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Roseseek

I just emailed Burling at like 4 in the morning and she got back to me within half an hour! We should have a term for the hours we keep. I’m trying to get Out of Yesteryear after my education in fertile triploids. I examined the lineage of this rose and I love it and need its bracteata heritage. (Bracteate is one of the outlier “Chinese Cultivar” rose species that are lumped together as Banksiae, Bracteate and Laeviatea but don’t really have “genetic relations” to one another or they do have a common ancestor?) What a great rose, maybe. It has Guinee mixed in so there has got to have some beautiful tea fragrance genes in there somewhere although tea’s just smell like “freshness” to me like maybe a underripe melon freshly cut.

Your listing of April Moon and Blue for you were helpful as “female fertile triploids” but I am not going to be able to secure them this year. Burling and Pam are my final orders for this year and neither of them have it. What exactly happens with fertile triploid miniature roses? You get seedlings that are all over the place? Some miniatures some climbers? I swear I read this whole archive up and down for a year before I ever even registered as a member and I never figured it out.

Whatever happened to your Hugonis crosses? Please tell me you didn’t compost them? Have you abandoned further hybridization efforts with them? Are they “done” for you? What do you think would result if you put Safrano pollen on them? What do tea roses do to crosses?

You have this rose right? I am loving this rose. It does have mildew real bad but it still pushed out 5 HUGE blooms AT THE SAME TIME and the thing isn’t even 12 inches tall. None of them balled and they all opened perfect. A serious contender despite the mildew. Mother Dudley. Not sure what to do with her? Is she a fertile female for you? I plucked the flowers off because I want her to root more strongly or flower some more… I kinda would prefer that. Love the puffy cloud flower form. Literally like made of silk. Her roots are so thin though. What’s mildew resistant, has a powerful root system and a flower form that won’t destroy her? Maybe… Out of yesteryear? :ok_man:

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My notes kinda suck. I still have no idea what a centifolia is. That was the orgy of gallicas and albas right? You’re right I have china tea rose written. Why did I do that? Because Jason from Fraier Valley says stuff like that! I got Duchesse de Brabant because she is theoretically very cold hardy even though she seems very delicate in person and a couple other found teas. So many beautiful tea roses still that I will never have! because I don’t have room and I need to stay on track somehow. I missed out on Marie Van Houtte. She has quite a long list of decendants. Good choice.

Alfred Colomb is a wonderful little baby for me. First thing this spring he pushed out two very cute little flowers that were nice looking and smelled very good to let me know he is here to get down to business. He is not a disease bag HP. He looks good. Taking his dear sweet time growing up but I guess they all do because La Reine gave one funky flower that lasted a long long time and I am only now getting my second flush which is much more numerous- but at least I am seeing that she can do it- send flushes. Good mommy. Paul Neyron died :sob: of some disgusting botrytis infection caused by my overzealous application of questionable compost most likely. The literature is all “feed HP’s well” “generous composting” and I definitely goofed it. I have another Paul shipping out but he maybe just for personal enjoyment and cut flowers.

I would be so thrilled to get any decent looking hybrid tea looking plant that was fertile and reddish that I knew was not secretly related to all my hybrid teas through Souvenir de Claudius Pernet, Chrysler Imperial, Queen Elizabeth, and Château de Clos Vougeot. THEN THEN many a new SEXY red hybrid tea could be made!!! A scragly tortured vine with murderous thorns that rise up to reveal a large elegant velvet crimson flowerhead. That’s one of the most beautiful plants ever Red Hybrid teas with fragrance are just always gonna be a thing. Forever. They will never go away, why would society ever give them up? It’s not going to happen.People will always want them for centuries and centuries. They just need a little update. A little sumthin newish. Some kind of happy accident. Hell yeah I’m down for this journey. What color are you aiming for?

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I grew Out of Yesteryear years ago and will try it again here. What I found far more intriguing is Basye’s 86-3, Banksiae X Laevigata. Look here for what resulted from it so far. 'Basye's Amphidiploid Seedling 86-3' rose lineage Nope, I haven’t taken it further and I dumped the Cal Poly and Golden Horizon seedlings. I gave the Lynnie seedling to Robert Rippetoe and he’s bred past it and likely doesn’t still have it.

High Country Rosarium has April Moon. There are also other Buck triploids you might research and consider. Look at the offspring for Golden Angel and you’ll see what a fertile triploid mini can create. Some of my L56-1 X R. Minutifolia seedlings are also listed. I believe Anytime was likely triploid from some of the odd things it generated. I’m searching for some of Mr. Moore’s later triploid minis and other triploids and suspected triploids to see what they may have to offer. Incognito, Twilight Skies, Twilight Trail, I have to get Suntan Beauty again. It contains Golden Angel (triploid), Yellow Jewel (likely triploid) and Angel Farts which is addicted to every fungus it ever met but can be fertilized with dirt. I have Torch of Liberty which created Lynnie and a friend sent me her Anita Charles, and Apricot Twist, so those may provide some further interesting things. Apricot Twist made a fun scented “mini” with Lamarque. It may climb, if it had soil in which to grow. If you want to trace some interesting genes, start with Mary Wallace, an original fertile triploid, and follow it on down to Golden Angel, then down to the latest results. Scrivens’ Pretty Lady is also a fertile triploid with great health (here) and there are seedlings out back between it and Fedtschenkoana and Hugonis.

“Whatever happened to your Hugonis crosses? Please tell me you didn’t compost them? Have you abandoned further hybridization efforts with them? Are they “done” for you? What do you think would result if you put Safrano pollen on them? What do tea roses do to crosses?”

Some have died, some have been dumped (NO ROOM, increasing water costs, you CAN’T keep everything) and several of my favorites remain. I lost 1-72-1Hugonis. It now exists only in Europe where it has been introduced by Bierkreek, kwekerij, de as “Kim’s Golden Wonder”, and no, it results in nothing other than “bragging rights”. I push along that line using Xanthina and Primula to attempt to replicate that result, so far, unsuccessfully, but it’s a fun waste of time. I’ve not attempted Safrano as I don’t have it. I’ve considered it and haven’t moved on it. No room, increasing water costs, too many weeds and weedy grasses and other directions getting in the way. Tea crosses are of interest and will be attempted, IF I can get the damned snails and slugs under control where the Teas exist in the yard. They eat the tags and my stupid dogs EAT the snail bait. No, it isn’t “toxic” but it does generate vomit and there are FOUR of them who are already predisposed to vomit at will, anywhere, any time. I think it’s their favorite hobby…

“You have this rose right? I am loving this rose. It does have mildew real bad but it still pushed out 5 HUGE blooms AT THE SAME TIME and the thing isn’t even 12 inches tall. None of them balled and they all opened perfect. A serious contender despite the mildew. Mother Dudley. Not sure what to do with her? Is she a fertile female for you? I plucked the flowers off because I want her to root more strongly or flower some more… I kinda would prefer that. Love the puffy cloud flower form. Literally like made of silk. Her roots are so thin though. What’s mildew resistant, has a powerful root system and a flower form that won’t destroy her? Maybe… Out of yesteryear?”
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Look here. 'PD17Hug' Rose Ping Dong Yue Ji is a glorious thing. Who knows whether it’s an old HT or something earlier? That scent! I love harvesting its pollen! Once I can get the weeds, grasses, snails and slugs under control, I want to put 86-3, Lutescens, the three yellow Chinese species and hybrids on it. There are too many directions in which to go with all of them and no room… Some won’t work in one direction but are good in the other. I grow Moser Striped Rose which is a choice selection of Rainbow, the striped Papa Gontier. It makes hips with few HUGE seeds which likely need to have their embryos extracted, something I’m not inclined to spend my energy doing, as they don’t germinate well. The pollen works, though. George Washington Richardson (Mlle de Sombreuil) is a great parent in both directions. Mme Antoine Mari is a good parent both directions. I’m hoping Marguerite de Fénelon will start developing into a useful plant as it’s likely derived from Fortune’s Double Yellow (per Gregg Lowery and Fred Boutin) and should have some interesting colors up its sleeve. You know, Ping Dong Yue Ji possesses that same “lemon zest” scent as Lamarque. I harvest both pollens.

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I have a young plant of Belle Story. It might be big enough to send one or two bud eyes. Stephen

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I’m typically trying for reds, and Pernetiana-style blends (got a very nice apricot/orange/yellow melange last year from Kardinal 85 x Sunsprite).

On HP’s, my best-behaved and floriferous is surprising, given the amount of negatives that have been written over the years: American Beauty. I grow it, because my great-grandmother loved hers, and she was the one to introduce me to roses. Close runners-up are Paul Neyron (give him a few years to settle in) and the striped Ferdinand Pichard (which I am crossing right now with MVH). Frau Karl is so-so in my garden, but did produce a very nice pink child in combination with Louise Odier. I can’t recommend Baronne Prevost for my area, because the blooms ball badly even in moderately moist conditions. La Reine has that same tendency, though not as bad.

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one option would be seed…just would take a couple years for flowers

I had germination from their setigera seed but they didn’t survive here. I’ve grown a number of their other rose species to flowering so I attribute setigera (and pisocarpa) failing more due to climate (too hot/harsh here given their native environment because they only died in summer, germinated autumn, lived through winter and spring, dead in summer)

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Prairie Moon Nursery has seed and may have bare root plants in season. https://www.prairiemoon.com/rosa-setigera-illinois-rose-prairie-moon-nursery.html High Country Roses is out of stock on the plant but may have it later. They also have the desirable Buck’s and a few new interesting Robert Rippetoe minis. https://www.highcountryroses.com/category/species-roses/page/2/