Critique, suggestions for my crossing plans this year?

I’ve hunkered down and decided my goals. I’m really obsessed with apricot and buff/yellow coloring. It’s probably my favorite so you may notice a lot of ‘Arethusa’ who I am very impressed with, and of course ‘Plaisanterie’ which has that ‘Mutabilis’ color change.

I’ve decided my initial goals is to try and

Max, if you want to tame Plaisanterie, I’d begin using decent minis. I don’t think you’re going to see a whole lot of size reduction using Chinas and other shrubs.

"Hazeldean

Thats quite the ambitious list!

A lot of good ideas. My main concern is mildew, as well as using some of the species as males instead. Some are VERY finicky female parents (Rosa virginiana). Likewise, you may switch soem of your triploids to male parents instead. This should add efficiency to your program. In regards to mildew, you may want to incorpate more mildew-resistant lines in as well.

Good luck!

Yeah, that was my other thought – I hope you have space. Youre younger like I am so you have the time, but space is… a premium these days.

Thanks Kim. Really, any way to “tame” it from being a climber is a good thing for me, something more shrub form even 5 x 4 with less prickles because it has vicious thorns would even be a plus. I just like the size 3-4 by 3-4, it’s very “neat” and a good size for most gardens imo.

I’m still waiting on my ‘RdlH’ seeds in the fridge so I need to wait to see what kind of crosses they were, ‘Stanwell Perpetual’ or ‘Plaisanterie’ or something else completely. The latter I’m assuming would be either gorgeous or a mutant so I’m bracing myself. Not all are entirely to “the plan”, part of me just wants to cross ‘Plaisanterie’ with everything just because it sets so many hips and I’m just obsessed.

As far as mini’s - I have been wanting to get ‘Joycie’ for a long time, but I’m not sure it can be grown here no-spray. I’m not sure many minis here can be grown no-spray!I just scrapped up enough money to buy an ‘Unconditional Love’ which should be coming in April. I completely forgot to include it on the list. I’ll probably be exploring with that if I can and will cross ‘Plaisanterie’ with that as well.

Any suggestions on healthier mini’s for the mid-atlantic?

Thanks Jadae, I don’t think it’s very ambitious, I will probably end up using my finger for a lot of crosses, just kind of brush pollen on things, so it probably will be more casual pairings…I’ll try being “technical” with emasculation and such but I’m terrible with timing so we’ll see how that will go. I haven’t had much success keeping seedlings either so I’ll probably only end up with a few…

Thanks with the triploid thing. I was thinking of doing crosses both ways just to make sure, so that should be okay. I’m trying to think which of mine are triploid,

‘Softee’

‘Hazeldean’

any others? I’ll need to check on hmf. Mildew can be gross here sometimes, two of my I believe to be Sven OP seedlings were entirely mildewy and gross half the summer, but one was not and I’ve planted that one. It had a lavender flower, probably a lot like it’s parent plant. foliolosa has really impressed me, I received some babies from Paul Barden and even being just a stick and young their autumn foliage was still quite noticeable. I like that the plant supposed to not get very big.

I’m hoping ‘String of Pearls’ might be usable, thank you for that one Kim, it seems interesting, I have quite a few things that are still too young to use. It’s quite sad really…

But miniatures then, besides ‘Unconditional Love’ are there any minis out there that could be grown no-spray here in Maryland? I’m not sure there are too many.


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Max,

Prairie Joy is one of my favorite roses and I always encourage its use. But for purposes of dwarfing or reducing plant size I would use another rose. If you have grown Prairie Joy in a colder climate where it suffers a lot of dieback you will see that it tends to throw long canes mid or late summer. These are always damaged in the winter and pruned out so the first flush of bloom occurs on a nice and compact plant–it just doesn’t stay that way. I have a Paloma Blanca x Prairie Joy seedling that was growing at my son-in law’s home in St. Louis. He took it as a year old cutting. By the end of the first summer it had reached the eaves of the garage and was continuing on horizontally. I have another Prairie Joy seedling I love that routinely throws 6-7 foot canes. I don’t think it will provide the compact growth you desire.

There are a handful of universally clean minins. Rose Gilardi is often one. Playgold is for me but its lineage is a bit rocky to say it is clean everywhere. A lot of the diploid microminis are clean – and a lot of them are very prone. Coffee Bean is fairy clean. Rabble Rouser is but I couldnt get fertility from it.

Duchesse de Montebello, Prairie Joy, Auguste Gervais and(probably is via logic) are also triploids.

When I said ambitious, I did not mean in quantity, but in both time of maturation and need for space due to the amount of large non-repeaters included. I am not sure as to what to suggest because I am not familiar with your climate, and I know that you have really specific goals in mind, so I cannot just guess.

Duchesse de Montebello readily produces good seed.

Duchesse de Montebello must not be triploid, or it is a really unusually fertile as a female for a triploid! I was looking at it more closely, especiallys since OGR types are not my thing, and its clearly very different. It looks, by traits, to deinitely have both Rosa canina and Old Blush in it. It obviously has Rosa gallica in it. I am assuming Alba, Gallica and some derivitive of Old Blush. Its ploidy could be one of many things! If Alba is included, its ploidy could be anywhere or stabilized into a tetraploid. Who knows … yet. If anyhing, though, the China, Gallica and Canina influence are obvious.

Max, so far I have found that 'Softee’works well as a pollen parent but most of its seedlings have been very mildew prone despite never seeing 'Softee’itself affected… even its OP seedlings were greatly affected by mildew. Crosses with modern shrubs resulted in a mildewy mess in most cases unfortunately. If thornlessness is what you are chasing with 'Softee’maybe try some of the Dr Bayse hybrids. All my ‘Commander Gillet’ seedlings are thornless as are Kim’s ‘Carlin’s Rhythm’ seedlings. Paul recommended 'Renae’to me as a source of thornlessness and it grows very cleanly and strongly here. It hasn’t flowered for me yet to try but I’ll be using it when it does.

Nice sample of interesting crosses not unlike those I did when starting. Many I could do if not long engaged in other ventures.

Keep your crosses and seeds well labeled as many seedlings from such parents will be large growers and once flowering with interesting recessive features (i.e. desease tolerance) that if fertile enough will be worthy to be expressed in further generations.

Best wishes.

Max, as I posted on another thread the other day, I’ve had to rethink the minis I’ve used for breeding due to black spot. What just came home from Burling today are:

1 Baby Love

1 Popcorn

2 Calpoly

2 Cinderlla

1 Pink Petticoat

1 Rabble Rouser

1 Opal Brunner

All are minis suggested by both Paul and Burling for being at least black spot resistant (to the extreme) as well as good resistance to the other diseases. Except for Opal. She’s really a hybrid musk from the forties which is fragrant, clean, thornless and one I saved from the Huntington Study Plot which I don’t want to lose again.

I’d think the minis from this list should be good, along with Unconditional Love, for list of varieties you may want to consider. Jim Delahanty told me today he grows Unconditional Love a few miles east of here where they have an easy time growing slime mold for lawns. He said it is not only extremely clean, but “drop dead bee-utiful!”. That’s enough for me! Kim

(Oh, and you’re welcome for the String of Pearls. I’m glad I could help!)

I finally lost my Opal. I always intended to try to breed something from it but never got around to it.

Kim, did Burling have ‘Nessie’ for you?

Scarlet Moss is highly BS resistant, which is what Unconditional Love is basically a vast improvement on due to the plant architecture, so I would believe it.

In one abstract I read, Rosa rubiginosa rated high in blackspot resistance, along with wichurana, rguosa roxburghii, and virginiaia, of course. I am sure primula and moyesii would have as well. I can see why the kordesii + mossing effect would be really helpful in roses like Rose Gilardi and Unconditional Love, especially since moss types can be mildew prone on the mossing itself. However, I do strongly wondider if there is a relationship between blackspot resistant and glandular physics.

For microminis: I know that Cinderella, Petite Perl d’Or, and Sweet Sue all have excellent bs resistance in NW Oregon.

Yes, thanks, Robert. Here is the one plant of Nessie from the suckers you sent to Burling. I left it with her for propagation. Thank you for sending them! I hope the stump is still alive.

Link: www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.166071

Kim, looks like we have hope for rescuing Nessie one way or another.

I’ll bring the stump, which appears to have life, to Pasadena during GROW weekend in a couple of weeks to hand off to you.

As an aside, and further to Jadae’s comments. Nessie x Petite Perle d’or is pollen fertile. It sets hips but nothing has germinated so far.

I’m fascinated with this one as it may be a line bred descedant of Cecile Brunner assuming your hunch about Nessie’s paternity is correct.

Btw, Nessie x Helrou is seed fertile, and no doubt pollen fertile.

I’m determined to get a manageable diploid repeater out of a Montecito descendant.

There is hope as I found a germination of (Nessie x Helrou) x Petite Perle d’or this morning.

Link: www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.42879

Mazel tov, Robert! I’m increasingly sure of the Cecile Brunner parentage of Nessie. She’s what I boinked Montecito with repeatedly because it just seemed the right thing to do. The foliage, color, just the “feel” of the plant all seemed right for that to be the cross. Thank you for being as good a steward of her as you have been. I’d never get anything back of her from Italy!

It’s going to be exciting seeing what you create from those germinating seeds! Amazing the seedlings should be so tiny with those parents! Kim

Kim, Nessie x Petite Perle d’or was, as I remember, one of the tiniest roses seedlings I’ve ever encountered.

It took me the longest time just to determine it was actually a rose instead of some weed seed that drifted in on the wind.

In retrospect I’m shocked it survived and even more surprised it developed into a chunky 5’x5’ vining Shrub which will no doubt build on itself indefinitely.

So far Petite Perle d’or gives micro minis and also some seedlings of intermediate stature as pollen parent.

I’ve got a number of seedlings out of it this Spring on a variety of seed parents. I put it on Old Lady Gates and have at least a dozen germinations so far.

Here’s a micro from last seasons efforts.

Link: www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.161501

You’re as perverse as I am Robert! Remember the HP Everest? I tried in vain for the longest time to pollinate that monster with Si! I can still see a micro HP in my mind’s eye. I’m glad you got something out of her. I haven’t tried yet, but will.