The mossing of Scarlet Moss is what Ralph Moore called the ‘thorn type’ moss, which is rather stiff and bristly. From the description in Phillips and Rix this seems to be what they refer to as the Damask type mossing. The other type is the centifolia moss, which is the type that Common Moss has.
Scarlet moss has given me quite a few hips (but few seeds, of course) and I’m looking forward to seeing what comes of them. However, I’d also like to work with the centifolia type of moss so I’m wondering if anyone can recommend a breeder for that purpose?
Are you referring to the crested moss type roses that Mr. Ralph Moore was working on, coming from ‘Chapeau de Napoleon’?
There are seedlings from the “thorn type” moss of ‘Scarlet Moss’ that produce a soft moss on their sepals, but this is different from the crested moss.
No, I’m distinguishing between the moss which occurs on centifolias and that which occurs on Damasks. Martin and Rix state that the type of moss which occurs on Damasks ‘is stiffer and browinsh’ compared to that which occurs on centifolias. I have observed that the moss on Common Moss, for instance, is not at all stiff and seems to produce more resin than does Scarlet Moss. The scents seem to differ as well although I’m sure that these things vary by climate.
I have Crested Jewel, which isn’t mossed but does descend from Crested Moss which is a centifolia type moss. I’ve got three seeds from Joycie pollen on Crested Jewel that I’m about to process, as a matter of fact.
There are seedlings from the “thorn type” moss of ‘Scarlet Moss’ that produce a soft moss on their sepals
Which are these?
Here is a photo of some of the moss seedlings that I grew from ‘Scarlet Moss’. The seedling on the left had very soft moss on the sepals.
Also, I still don’t understand whether you are talking about wanting to breed for the soft moss as in the seedling above to the left, or crested moss??
Thanks Jim. It’s interesting that there is variability in the quality of the mossing in progeny of Scarlet Moss.
I want to understand mossing, in general, with an eye toward target breeding for moss qualities such as scent and stiffness. For that reason I’ve been crossing Scarlet Moss with, well, everything especially my more fragrant breeders. So, I’d also like to add a centifolia type moss to the program.
Cresting is a separate trait that I’m interested in more casually, but for one of the same reasons that I’m interested in mossing. Both cresting and mossing are probably due to transposons that switch determinant growth patterns to indeterminate growth patterns. In mossing it’s the glandular trichomes that get switched to overdrive, in cresting its the sepals.
My guess is that juvenile remontancy is a third case of this. If so, the question is whether the same transposon can cause all three phenomena depending on where it lands. If it can, then breeding with mosses or cresteds might be a way to impart remontancy. Put another way, the rate of juvenile remontancy among moss progeny might be higher than would otherwise be expected, although it would take a great many progeny to tell.
Just thinking out loud.
Paul Barden may have more information on this, but don’t the cresteds and the mosses come from the Centifolias?
If you are more interested in the mossing, have you considered Henri Martin in your breeding? If not I would be interested to know why. I have been considering it as a pollen parent. It doesn’t have but a couple of offspring and the pictures in HMF don’t show whether the mossing is very pronounced.
I firmly believe that mossing can manifest itself as either type depending on how the trait is inherited and what plants you mate, but is the same genetic factor, it just expresses differently in different plants. As Jim has pointed out, ‘Scarlet Moss’ seedlings can have hard, thorny mossing, heavily fuzzy soft type mossing, or none at all. When Ralph talked about there being two types of mossing, I think it was misleading to suggest that there were two different genes responsible for each distinct type. I don’t think this is true, based on the many mossed seedlings I have raised from a variety of crosses, and using a variety of parents.
I think you can select most any moss parent and get the full range of moss “types” in the offspring, assuming it is expressed at all. (Fairly often you will make a cross and get no mossing on any of the seedlings)
There’s a plant of Henri Martin growing at Elizabeth Park right next to Wichmoss, another centifolia moss, but I missed their blooming period last spring so didn’t manage to get pollen. They are on my list, though.
I used to grow Salet, a parent of Wichmoss, way back when I was too dumb to know its value so I gave it to my kid sister because it got ‘too big’. Live and learn.
I have some HM cuttings that I’m trying to root. If they take I’d be happy to send you a couple. Probably won’t be until Spring.
Jeff, thanks for the offer. Hopefully this spring I’ll have some additional growing space so I can add a few more breeders. BTW, I need your mailing address so I can send you some embryos.
Don, can you let us know how embryos can be sent successfully (by post I presume)?
When Ralph talked about there being two types of mossing, I think it was misleading to suggest that there were two different genes responsible for each distinct type.
I was only going by what Martin and Rix said, although I did recall what Mr. Moore wrote in his article too. I should probably quote M&R (p8):
“Moss roses originate as muations or sports on normal roses. The first is recorded in 1720. At present they are known to have appeared three times on Centifolia roses, and less often on Damask roses, in which the moss is stiffer and brownish. A single-flowered Centifolia Moss which appeared in the early nineteenth century enabled hundreds of Moss hybrids to be bred, in addition to the numerous sports that had appeared in the eighteenth century.”
I think you can select most any moss parent and get the full range of moss “types” in the offspring
If you had to pick one in addition to Scarlet Moss, which would it be?
Don, can you let us know how embryos can be sent successfully (by post I presume)?
Well, I’ve had mixed results but I generally send them firmly supported in a small mailing box, expedited delivery. This doesn’t mean much to our postal service, though. At the moment there’s a shipment that’s been misplaced in Michigan (-10 celcius right now), and there was one last spring that got run over by a truck en route. Package them securely, that’s for sure.
See if you can find Goethe, the single moss created from multiflora and moss. 'Goethe' Rose
Centrifolia is theorized to be from many lines of roses, which includes Rosa canina. For whatever intuitive reasoning, I believe that Rosa canina has influenced mossing and cresting.
I have a single flowered sport of R. centifolia muscosa that looks like the single moss described in the M&R quote. It has bountiful pollen and sets seed very easily. I need to dig up some suckers for someone else so I can dig some up for you as well.
“If you had to pick one in addition to Scarlet Moss, which would it be?”
‘Scarlet Moss’ is always at the top of my list for moss breeders for a number of reasons: it has ‘Dortmund’ red in it, it passes on heavy mossing, and its offspring often have improved Blackspot and Mildew resistance. So, it depends whether you are looking to breed something fully remontant in the modern moss shrub style, or more like the traditional once blooming European style of suckering, thicket forming Moss. (In my experience, the thicket forming growth habit is lost almost immediately once you add modern moss hybrids into the mix, so be aware of that)
If you are planning on producing a modern shrub style of plant, then I would use Ralph Moore’s “Nutshop”, which is a complex hybrid involving “Orange Moss”, R. nutkana and a couple of very brightly pigmented Hybrid Teas. It is once blooming but has one gene for remontancy. It builds up into a fairly full shrub with decent architecture and is capable of passing on strong (soft type) mossing readily and a wide range of good colors, including oranges and reds. It has also given me blooms with a different color on the reverse when mated with the right thing. (see: '90-02-02' Rose Photo )
If its a Centifolia style rose you are aiming to breed, then I would use the single flowered R. centifolia muscosa sport I am growing, because it is very willing to produce seed. ‘Henri Martin’ is one other possibility, but I would likely select ‘William Lobb’ (or one of its primary hybrids like Moore’s 12-59-10) because of its ability to pass on dark gothic coloring.
Be aware that if you locate ‘Salet’ for breeding that there are several different plants floating around commerce under that name and it is difficult to know which is the “real deal”. You might acquire a plant and find out a decade later than you have not had the real ‘Salet’ all along.
We can discuss this matter further via email.
I’m going to email you in private to suggest a couple of proprietary hybrids I can offer you.
See if you can find Goethe, the single moss created from multiflora and moss<<<<<
I just read the late Ralph Moore’s “Modern Moss Roses” booklet as posted on Paul Barden’s blog site, and in it Ralph Moore says this about Goethe…
"…Goethe grows into a vigorous 6-8 foot very
thorny plant. Covered in spring with hundreds of
small 5 petaled pink flowers. Well mossed buds.
No pollen; no seeds…"
It does not sound ueful in breeding mosses to me…
I love multiflora, but I’d probably stay away from it for mosses because of their issue with mildew (the moss mildews, too, which looks…unfortunate). I usually hat eblackspot more than mildew because I live in blackspot country, but I think blackspot is more tolerable on moss roses than mildew is.
Paul, how well has Rose Gilardi worked out for you in terms of passing on mossing?