Breeding strategies

Roses for Hybridizing
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21

Henry referred to an article some while ago that tested the different responses rose species had to blackspot. They found 8 ‘interaction types’. In type 7 and 8 the fungus was repelled at level of the first infected plant cell (7) or the cuticle (8). (I don’t have the article here, only the species table)

Species with type 7:

R. multiflora

R. nutkana

R. roxburghii

R. virginiana

R. wichurana

R. woodsii

Species with type 8:

R. majalis

R. moyesii

R. multibracteata

R. nitida

R. omeiensis

R. swezignzowii macrocarpa

The authors probably didn’t test all variations of blackspot, but I believe the above list gives a nice indication of where resistance in roses can be found.

Of course, the work that has to be done to get the resistance into interesting hybrids is another matter. Then the available R. wichuraiana derivatives seem to be the quickest way to go.

Rob

22

Further to Rob’s last post about disease resistant species, it may be noteworthy that Ralph Moore’s 1952 Rambler ‘Cotton Candy’ is R wichuraiana X (R. multibracteata X an unknown Floribunda), thus bringing two very disease resistant species into one hybrid. While ‘Cotton Candy’ does not have very good Blackspot resistance, perhaps the genetic characteristics lie within the plant, waiting to be tapped.

Paul Olsen asks “Why are we fixated on using modern roses in a breeding program, when there is so much potential to develop unique, tough and disease resistant roses by concentrating on using species and species hybrids?”

Well, the short answer would be, because the market currently places greater value on the beauty of the individual bloom over health of the plant. Although much credit (and gratitude) goes to Bill Radler for giving us ‘Knockout’, the rose industry is recognizing the fact that while it functions exceptionally well as a disease free, easy landscape shrub, it is not competing with the roses which have been bred for over 100 years to give certain bloom styles. Lets face it, nobody is likely to start breeding with R. arkansana or R. woodsii and end up with plants that produce Hybrid Tea style blooms in three or four generations. It may not even be possible.

I’m not suggesting that the pursuit of disease free roses is not a viable one, but I do feel it needs to be recognized that it may take dedicated breeders decades to come up with clean varieties that will hold their own in the market when comparing aesthetic virtues of the rose. I like ‘Knockout’ and consider it an excellent shrub that delivers lots of color with little effort required. But I also feel that it falls far short of my personal aesthetic ideal when gazing at an individual bloom. I know many people have similar thoughts about it. Can ‘Knockout’ deliver its best features into progeny with blooms the shape of ‘Abraham Darby’, for example? How many generations away is it? Five? Ten? One hundred?

I see Tom Carruth’s new shrub ‘Home Run’ is a ‘Knockout’ seedling, touted as having the same excellent disease resistance but on a smaller plant with somewhat better colored blooms. Is ‘Knockout’ doomed to breed nothing but lookalikes in order to retain its disease resistance? I wonder. ‘Home Run’ is another five petaled medium red shrub. Not much different from its parent, really. Well, I have used ‘Knockout’ in breeding last year and will see what the seedlings turn into. ‘Knockout’ is a triploid and it acts as though its pollen has very low fertility, based on how poor the seed set was on even the easiest of my seed setters. It may take another generation to recover some real fertility. I wonder if mating ‘Knockout’ with some of Svejda’s Kordesii hybrids would be one way to accomplish better disease resistance? I have some ‘William Baffin’ nybrids in the garden right now, and it looks like very good disease resistance is possible in the first generation. I plan on taking the best clones and crossing them with each other to reinforce the disease resistance. we’ll see what happens. I might end up with excellent plant that hang the ugliest blooms ever seen, and then where will I be? laughs

Note: It is becoming apparent that progeny of the Miniature ‘Golden Angel’ sometimes have the best disease resistance I have encountered to date. I plan on including it in work with the Wichuraiana lines to see if disease resistance can be had that way. Ahh…what a grand game it is!

Paul

23

Rob

Thomas Debener did laboratory tests that may be quite different from field or garden tests. He said me that some rugosa Alba clones were found to be susceptible to all eight blackspot strains they tried. He did not answer when I observed that this intraspecific variation was not obseved in gardens.

Quite susceptible wichuraiana clones were also found.

Species are not at all uniform and susceptibility varies according to clones and circonstancies.

He is apparently looking for dominant monogenetic resistance to geneticaly manipulate actual vars. This dominant monogenetic resistance he found in multiflora a species that has been largely introgressed in modern roses…

Paul O

That wichuraiana resistance introgression is difficult is testified by the Kordess. They are still releasing not fully resistant groundcover os shrub vars while persisting at wichuraiana inbreeding since not less than thirty years. However they are steadily perfecting steeds larger and better flowered vars with unusual plant qualities.

Why are we fixated on using modern roses?

As it is the unique way to get lasting sophisticated flowers with bright colors. Just centuries old breeding at decorative qualities.

Tom Carruth’s ‘Home Run’ however points at breeding for different models. If not for the flower exhibitions many gardeners would love more decorative easy shrubs.

Paul B

I know nobody can explore all possible breeding pathes.

And you are on some quite exciting ones.

This said there others not so bad ones: I.e. Belinda’s Dream is (Wich x Tea) x HT. Two generations from a diploid species. A possible piece of luck if neither a perfect HT nor a bad rose.

Pretty Lady and Baby Love aparently owe desase resistance from amateur breeders species crosses.

Pierre Rutten

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24

While I definitely think there are many species with potential for contributing disease resistance genes to a breeding program, I have to agree with Paul’s idea that Rosa wichuraiana is a top notch one to focus on. I’m very impressed with the health of the wichuraiana derivatives I’ve grown, as well as wichuraiana itself. And although they’ve been used already quite a bit, I don’t think their potential has been exhausted.

Paul,

You mentioned that “nobody is likely to start breeding with R. arkansana or R. woodsii and end up with plants that produce Hybrid Tea style blooms in three or four generations.” I agree that it’s not likely, but…

I’ve been surprised more than once when I was expecting a more “species-like” bloom form. One of my bigger surprises was ‘Fragrant Cloud’ X carolina. I was fully expecting that the unassuming buds of its maiden bloom would open to be small and single. They seemed to take forever to open, growing bigger all the while. When they finally opened, I was surprised at the very “Hybrid Tea”-like form. See the link below for a picture.

Granted – it’s still a once-bloomer, with weak necks and only moderately improved disease resistance, but for an F1 species cross, it’s not so far from the ultimate goals. Give me another generation (or two at the most), and I bet it’ll produce some really nice offspring.

I think that the flower-form shortcomings and lack of fragrance that someone has mentioned for the Canadian Parkland roses (derived from arkansana breeding), could have been avoided if those traits had been valued more and selected for, in the early days of the breeding program. From what I’ve gathered cold-hardy bedding roses was the goal there, and they were fairly successful in achieving that goal.

Thanks for the advice about ‘Cotton Candy’ and ‘Golden Angel’. More fuel for thoughts.

Link: www.koolpages.com/hybridizer/Rose/FragrantCloudXcarolina.html

25

I see Tom Carruth’s new shrub ‘Home Run’ is a ‘Knockout’

seedling, touted as having the same excellent disease

resistance but on a smaller plant with somewhat better

colored blooms. Is ‘Knockout’ doomed to breed nothing but

lookalikes in order to retain its disease resistance?

‘Home Run’ may not owe all it’s disease resistance to

‘Knockout’. It’s seedling parent is a cross between

‘City of San Francisco’ X ‘Baby Love’. ‘Baby Love’ is

quite disease resistant. As to the lookalike issue, if

you look back at the line of ‘Home Run’, the roses are

almost all singles or very slightly doubled. So there may

be hope of using Knockout as a parent for roses with more

doubled flowers.

Chris Mauchline

SE PA, zone 6

26

has Playboy in it, a distant descendant of Red Radiance.

27

Will Alderman is an example of a Hybrid Tea crossed with 2 species (acicularis and rugosa) elkorose.com.

It is my best commercial rugosa hybrid and is a very interesting parent. I suspect that it produces some tetraploid pollen. In the link below use your browzers find command with the word alderman to see how I used it in my latest 2 years seedlings.

Link: home.neo.rr.com/kuska/2004_and_2005_very%20good%20seedlings.htm

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28

Paul,

Using Rosa arkansana or Rosa woodsii (or any other species)in a breeding program, the goal, of course, is not to breed roses similar to modern roses. What would be the point of that? Rather, it is to develop new types of roses that are more suitable to landscapes than modern roses like Floribundas and Hybrid Teas. In my opinion, the tall Floribundas and Hybrid Teas are now obsolete. They are incompatible with the landscapes of smaller house lots being developed in new urban residential areas. They also take a great deal of care required to maintain them and most people don’t have the pateience to do that anymore. Furthermore, gardeners are now more sophisticated creating their landscapes, and Floribundas and Hybrid Teas often do not work well in them.

The only reason why modern roses like Floribundas and Hybrid Teas dominate the retail market, of course, is the marketing of them. A good example is the relatively new Bailey shrub roses that has an aggressive marketing program behind it. A few, new interesting colour combinations in the cultivars being introduced but the program to date has not added anything to the advancement of the development of roses. Furthermore, the cultivars introduced have had limited testing for disease resistance. These roses are now widely sold in northern (Zone 3) climates without having been properly trialed and that is unethical.

The rose breeder has to ask him/herself, "Do I develop roses for the market that is not compatible to the needs of the gardener or do I develop a breeding program that will meet their needs, if not now but in the future? Of course, it is only through the use of species or species hybrids that enable the development of new types of roses that will meet the gardener’s needs at the present time and in the future.

Paul

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29

Paul,

There is not one single word of your statement that I disagree with. However, my concern was that it is going to take a long time and a lot of work to persuade the average gardener to think outside of the HT mould. As long as long stem Hybrid Teas are the dominant cut flower, then Joe Public will persist in believing that “this is what a REAL rose looks like.” I encounter this attitude all the time, and the lack of scope in the minds of many is frustrating. They want what they want, and what they want comes out of the Florist’s shop window.

My comments were also intended to play Devil’s Advocate. Believe me, my own breeding program rarely makes any use of Hybrid Tea and Floribunsa genes, and certainly not with the idea of aiming for more “cookie cutter” roses. I agree that the HT’s and such are stale and trite aesthetic ideals that we can afford to look beyond now. Don’t get me wrong; there are many HT’s (mostly older ones) that I adore and consider to be some of the most lovely things bred, but I am not interested in breeding more of them myself.

I am working with several species hybrids and am very pleased with some of the results. (See: "Cardinal Californica" Rose ) I am emphasizing shrub form, ease of culture, generosity of bloom and disease resistance over the beauty of the individual blooms. That is not to say that I don’t think the flowers beautiful, but they are about as far from a florist’s HT as one can get!

I feel I have to comment about what you said about the Bailey roses: I know Ping Lim and he has described to me in great detail their process for selecting new varieties for their new line. While some of your criticisms may be true, it is not true that they have not done field trials before marketing the new varieties. He showed me slides of fields of test varieties grown in Wisconsin (Zone 4, I believe) without Winter protection of any kind. Many varieties were killed outright, some died to the snow line and some were Winter hardy to the tips. Only the really hardy ones were chosen (assuming they measured up in all other regards) and all others were abandoned. I have no reason to doubt that the Bailey roses have been tested as Ping has told me. If nurseries are marketing them as Zone 3 hardy plants, that may have more to do with the policies of those nurseries than the Bailey marketing program. I believe they promote those roses as hardy to Zone 4, not Zone 3.

“The rose breeder has to ask him/herself, ‘Do I develop roses for the market that is not compatible to the needs of the gardener or do I develop a breeding program that will meet their needs, if not now but in the future?’”

Possibly the most important question we should all be asking ourselves. I recognize the need for better landscape-compatible roses, especially where disease resistance is concerned. I’m all for a legion of no-spray roses in our future and I hope I will be able to contribute to that goal. As far as looking into the future to meet customer’s needs in a decade or two, none of us can do more than speculate. Fashion and trend dictates what the market will buy, regardless of the ideals we pursue. I’m not saying we shouldn’t follow our ideas through, I am simply skeptical when it comes to the tastes of the gardening public. :wink:

Ultimately, I will breed what pleases me, and if such roses are contrary to the aesthetic ideals of everyone else, that’s fine. I please ME first. Am I going to screen my roses for disease resistance? You bet I am. Am I going to discard an otherwise excellent rose because its disease resistance does not measure up to ‘Knockout’? Not at all. Change does not happen overnight, and I will breed roses that please me while at the same time, seeking varieties with suprior disease resistance. Like many of you, I am working with species and species hybrids to find that new ideal, and I welcome all types of shrubs and flower forms, because I believe beauty is in diversity of flower and shrub style.

Thank you all for your wonderful contributions to this discussion.

Paul

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30

Although this won’t go for the way of hardiness, but gigantea and other tea roses is another breeding stragedy.

Tea roses are long lived and disease free (or at leas the majority of them).

I have an OP La Follette seedling that seems to do especially well right now. Although it’s new, so I can’t say much. It germinated at the same with my other seedlings Ceaser E Chavex X Shropshire Lass. And that seedling is very disease prone but still living. And I remember reading the older rose annuals describing how teas are better than hybrid teas when it comes to health.

Even the Applejack X spinossima seedling isn’t doing well, and it has two very disease resistant parents.

Several of my Secret X tea seedlings seem to have especially glossy foilage that hasn’t mildewed. That’s a miracle because I have a huge mildew problems.

Ralph Moore has a few tea/miniature seedlings such as It’s Show Time, Lucy, and Sharon’s Delight.

31

Enrique,

I believe that the Blackspot susceptibility of Hybrid Teas came, in part, from their Hybrid Perpetual ancestors, many of which are notorious for their problems with Blackspot. However, although the Teas may have something to offer as far as Blackspot resistance is concerned, they have 2 disadvantages as well: Many offspring are tragically Mildew prone, and, they will compromise the Winter hardiness of many of their offspring. If you wish to breed warm climate roses, then Teas may be a great choice. Otherwise, they may be inviting more problems than they resolve. Has anyone worked with crosses of Teas onto species?

I have R. arkansana suckers I can dig up if anyone wants to work with this species. My clone is capable of at least 3 flushes of bloom per year. I also have R. woodsii ultramontana/fendleri available as suckers. Cuttings of R. foliolosa can be had too.

Paul

32

Paul O., I don’t know if one of us has the wrong info on Bonica’s parentage, but while the seed parent is 50% sempervivems, the other 50% is pure Wichuriana. Nice glossy leaves passed on to Bonica too. (Mademoiselle Marthe Carron is a cross of R. w. and a sport of R. w.) I think you may have contradicted yourself. R.w. is not necessarily the panacea I would like it to be.

And in my climate, I quite frankly have been underwhelmed with the wichurianas. New Dawn, Dr. Van Fleet, and several other relatives are somewhat susceptible to BS. Some of the teas do every bit as well. The only “disease-free” rose here is Banksia, though I realize that in cooler climates it can occasionally mildew.

Shame it lacks hardiness. Its offspring Purezza appears to be every bit as resistant.

Good thread here!

33

Blackspot susceptibility of modern roses lies in two facts:

1_too little breeding for desease resistance

2_no known usable monogenic resistance

Point 1 was discused earlier.

That no usable monogenic resistance for rose deseases has been found is pure evidence. If not we should have consistently resistant cv families. And progenies with a fair amount of definitively resistant seedlings if for one funghus. When a lot of species genes have been introgressed over the last two centuries.

It is largely demonstrated that a real breeding shift is needed

Back to breeding strategy.

The question is: which public am I breeding for!

Am I breeding for exhibitors? Old rose lovers? Garden flower lovers? Collector or aiming at excellence grower? Formal garden owner? Wild garden amateur? Public gardens? Roadside plantings? For not so skilled average gardeners? Or the know nothing new cottage owner.

How many percent fall in each category?

For the little nursery or for the large one? Specialized or general? Regional or nationwide?

For actual standards or future ones? Which ones?

All professional breeders have specialized strategies according to different goals.

Very few vars do succed out of the class they were bred for.

Pierre Rutten

34

Close tea descendants often resent winter pruning in my area.

35

Philip,

Thanks for mentioning Rosa wichuraiana in the parentage of ‘Madamoiselle Marthe Caron’. However, if the photo posted by Help Me Find Roses is accurate I would take the parentage of this cultivar with a grain of salt. There’s no way that a sport of Rosa wichuraiana crossed with this species could produce a flower of that size. Furthermore, I wouldn’t expect a cultivar having 1/2 Rosa wichuraiana in its parentage to have the relatively upright growth habit of ‘Bonica’.

You mention that you have had some blackspot problems with ‘Dr. Van Fleet’ and ‘New Dawn’ and its relatives. While I never saw blackspot problems on ‘New Dawn’ grown on Vancouver Island where I lived for several years, your observation only reinforces my argument not to mix the very disease resistant Rosa wichuraiana (or any other species) with modern roses.

Paul,

Thanks for your lengthy response and the valid points you make. Since I’m familiar with some of your breeding programs, I knew you were playing devils advocate to some extent with me. I especially identify with your comment about “breeding roses that pleases me.” For sure, no one can go wrong with that breeding strategy. And fortunately it’s a strategy that nearly all breeders make, whether it is on a conscious or unconscious level.

I’ll make another comment about the Bailey roses. There is a big difference of a Zone 4 climate compared to a Zone 3 one when it comes to growing roses, and these cultivars were selected in the former climate. There is some testing of these cultivars in a Canadian Zone 3 climate (I’m also doing it, although this winter in Alberta to date is a Zone 4 one), but it is too early to have definite results. In the meantime, some of the cultivars are available from garden centres who have not tested them. The garden centre owners don’t have a clue about these roses, so they are no doubt purchased on the recommendation of the salesperson representing Bailey’s Nursery.

Bailey roses are also sold in large quantities at large box stores in Alberta at cheap prices. As far as I’m concerned, when I see these roses being sold this way in cold (Zone 3) climates they are just another nursery product for Bailey’s to make money on. They might as well make and market a widget of some sort. Certainly there is no concern for the gardener living in a Zone 2 or 3 climate who purchases them, only for profits that can be made from these consumers.

Paul

36

I just wanted to answer Paul Barden’s question about teas. I have crossed teas, Chinas, and polyanthas (all selected to most likely be diploid) with diploid species. I have gotten low female fertility with the tea/China/poly parents, very low, or no, female fertility with most diploid species, but high female fertility with potted rugosa roses in my greenhouse, as well as one and only one, clone of R. blanda in the garden. This clone is not named, but is a very nice selection, and I purchased it from Heirloom Roses back when they were selling species.

Germination of the seeds is low to good, but survival is abysmal. I have built up a small stock of such hybrids over the years. I am hoping to eventually get back to recurrence and other traits by selfing or crossing these roses. I have about 7 R. blanda x China crosses in the garden. They are very hardy and healthy, but only 3 have bloomed so far, with just a few blooms each time. The blooms were single and reddish-pink. The other blanda hybrids, including all of the tea crosses, are too young to bloom. I have had no luck with pollen from these, or any hips. The one exception was a R. blanda X ‘Mutabilis’ seedling that made 3 OP hips the summer before last. I somehow lost the hips, and the plant did not bloom again this year, due to poor care on my part.

Most of my few rugosa hybrids also have not bloomed, but I have had blooms on two R. rugosa x dwarf China crosses. They are dwarf and had exceptionally ugly magenta flowers. I also got nothing from crossing these few flowers.

I plan to grow all of these diploid seedlings to a large size, hoping to get the occasional seed. Diploid crosses are only a side project for me, but I think they may have great promise, and I have continued to make R. blanda crosses.

It’s worth mentioning, under breeding strategies, that it is supposed to be easier to breed for difficult traits in diploids than it is in tetraploids (a category including almost all modern roses). Perhaps once a start is made, progress would be rapid. It could be a good way to bypass the modern hybrids, if this is desirable. I am not far enough in my work to have a definite opinion on the continued relevance of the modern roses.

Just the same, I am mainly working with crosses between modern roses and tetraploid species. I’m writing up my results on the first generation for an article I hope to publish in the RHA newsletter.

To make a long story short, R. pendulina, virginiana, carolina, arkansana, ‘Alika’ (an unusual Gallica hybrid), and some spinosissima hybrids either often or usually produce hybrids that are fully hardy here in Big Rapids, Michigan (only zone 5). R. spinosissima ‘Altaica’ and ‘Tuscany’ do not.

R. pendulina, virginiana, and carolina gave good blackspot resistance to their hybrids. R. arkansana, ‘Alika,’ ‘Tuscany,’ and the spinosissima forms gave moderate blackspot resistance in their hybrids. By moderate, I mean substantial leaf loss, but less than 50%. It is somewhat difficult to evaluate blackspot resistance in the R. spinosissima ‘Altaica’ and R. arkansana hybrids, because they have spider mite problems.

37

Paul O,

Thanks for referencing me back to Helpmefind. I have to say that after doing a little more research, I am very intrigued by Marthe Carron. (Are you at all familiar with her outside of “helpmefind”? I’m starting to covet her.) It seems that Meiland did many crosses of R. sempervirens x Marthe Carron, and the majority were groundcover roses. Swany and Alba Meilandecor are two examples. Alba M. is a great rose reportedly in part because it is self-cleaning and presumably sterile. I therefore assume that the sister seedling and parent to Bonica was a different seedling.

As far as I can tell, Marthe Carron is not available state-side. Too bad. I think she could be interesting to work with. I would enjoy seeing more crosses of her with other synstylea, as jadae had suggested.

I hope I didn’t come across as argumentative, but I do find that blanket statements often tend to be disproved where rose hybridizing is concerned. I enjoy speculating and asking others experiences – and you certainly have more than I – but in the end it seems the darned roses are going to go ahead and do what they fancy anyway.

That said, I can’t be too surprised if a sister to a groundcover rose gives rise to an upright like Bonica. And if Dr. Van Fleet gets BS here, I must confess that I collected the cuttings after 3 years experience with an ancient plant in Connecticut which blew me away for its vigor and health. I’m really living in rose-hell down here as far as disease is concerned.

Anybody stateside have Mlle. Marthe Carron??

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Hmm, R. sempervirens and Marthe Carron are both once-flowering. But Alba Meidiland, Swany and Bonica are repeat flowering. Where did the repeat flowering come from?

Maybe both the R. sempervirens Meilland used and Marthe Carron are actually hybrids with modern repeat flowering roses.

Rob

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According to Eve nursery Mlle Martha Carron is very repeat flowering " tres remontant":

http://catalogue.roses-anciennes-eve.com/RAAE_Site/WebPagesFR/dtails.htm&&2AcBcg0obDuox2NvxMpoLGxolfAo24Va_6SaSWSaqkWaXa

Ilya

40

The Google translation of the French link is given below.

Link: translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.roses-anciennes-eve.com/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Droses-anciennes-eve%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG