Last summer I did some ‘Immensee’ x bracteata crosses and some seedlings came up but as soon as they got to the first leaf stage they croaked. I have one left that is at the first leaf stage and it’s not dead yet, but not far from it I think.
Tom was telling me he had never been able to get bracteata to marry well with wichurana and he mentioned another article (which I can’t remember atm), that mentions how others (Dr Basye maybe???) could never get it to work either.
Has anyone been able to get it to work? I understand that bracteata is a hard one at the best of times but this seems like a direction I’d like to try and push. I was thinking ‘Immensee’ might work given it’s not straight wich., but it doesn’t seem to have made any difference.
The little one mentioned above has made some new leaves!!! Feeding it up like crazy atm to try and get it to do something… two photos below are a 18 days apart.
24th. Dec. 2012
[attachment 1356 ImmenseexBracteata1.jpg]
11th. Jan. 2013
[attachment 1357 ImmenseexBracteata2.jpg]
(I’ll add a better photo tomorrow… little thing is hard to focus on )
From what I’d remembered, it was Basye who’d had a similar [but not exact same] experience. The following article wasn’t the original one I remember, but it sounds like it’s just another version of the same story. I vaguely remember more details about the exact stage of growth when the deaths occurred but maybe it’s just my own experience creeping in. Basye’s cross was bracteata X laevigata - mine was bracteata X wichuraiana. Every last single seedling of my cross looked beautiful until the first true leaf started to expand. As we’ve talked before, maybe using a hybrid wichuraiana would give better results OR maybe the cross in reverse???
Here’s that recent mention I saw of the phenomenon:
Here’s a quick quote from the article, if you don’t have time for the whole thing:
“One of the most significant results from the data given was the inability of the seedlings from the R. bracteata x laevigata cross to develop to maturity. The death of all during the second month suggests the absence of some factor, perhaps an enzyme system, required by the hybrids after reaching a definite stage of development. This is a striking example of incompatibility not yet described in Rosa.”
Thanks, Tom. I had read some parts of that before, somewhere, but it was really good to read to whole paper. I have been focusing on intersectional crosses myself this season hoping that this will result in fewer incompatibility and fertility issues and better health. I’m still doing wide crosses but not many. In keeping with the findings reported in that paper, I have some little ‘Temple Bells’ x ‘Therese Bugnet’ (wich. x rugosa) seedlings that are really struggling toget going too.
This is the little seedling today. It seems strong enough but it’s not a particularly healthy shade of green.
[attachment 1376 ImmenseexBracteata3.jpg]
I’ve brought it inside to sit in the sunroom with a bottle of water+ferts next to it so I can keep and eye on it and feed it every time I water it. It’s actually height is only 23mm. It germinated in October, 2012.
p.s. Those palustris seeds have really taken off and there seems to be over 40 seedlings coming up in the tray. If anyone wants some R. palustris (in Australia) let me know and I’ll send them off over winter.
Lens did a lot of work with R. bracteata X Rugosa Hybrids and Teas. Simon you have Ten Thousand Lights, that litlle China is very fertile , try sticking some R. bracteata pollen on it. I reckon it will work.
I put laevigata onto Ten Thousand Lights and they failed. I have TTL pollen ready to use tonight, actually. No bracteata or clinobracteata ready to use yet. Trying to think what I’ve got around to put TTL onto. First option is my lilttle one called “Willow” which is ‘Temple Bells’ x (probaby) ‘Mutabilis’. I’ve already put OP Ten Thousand Camelias Red China Rose onto it (and vice versa).
I have tried endlessly to get a Laevigata pollination to work , have tried it on my most fertile types with results known in two weeks as it yellows. I have this feeling that it pollen tubes may be too short to penetrate the longer stigma lengths of some cultivars. When you look at R. laevigata stigmas , they look very similar to a lot of Cinnamomeae types, low and button shaped, which could relate to its pollen tube length. Other reasons could be what Tom pointed out earlier. At work we have a R. laevigata which tends to set numerous hips each year, could be a way of creating a cross, but findinig something which flowers early like Laevigata is the problem.
You’re definitely not alone in your experience with laevigata. It’s going to be a tough nut to crack!
I’ll have to see if I can find the book, but I remember reading of some rose hybridizer from the past “wasting whole seasons” on it. And if I’m remembering correctly, I think he’d mentioned that all he had to show for all of his efforts was a once-blooming, apple-blossom pink, deliciously-scented shrub. I think I’d be thrilled with that at this point!!! I’ve only ever gotten one hybrid (it was with either helenae or multiflora pollen on laevigata) and it was a puny runt of a plant. It finally died after three or four years of growth (and die-back) - at which point it was still only ankle high. I also got what looked to be a few good seeds (not hollow shells) from rugosa and gallica pollen but never was able to get germinations. I’ve got laevigata looking healthy enough to maybe bloom this Spring and plan on freezing pollen to try more crosses. Hope springs eternal!
Have you tried collecting and growing out any of the open-pollinated seeds from that laevigata at work? You could possibly find some really nice surprise hybrids among them.
I have four open pollinated seedlings from laevigata here that are very strong. They are meant to be pretty self-sterile so I was hoping they would be hybrids. Unfortunately I think they are selfs. When they started making red new growth I thought it was a sign of hybridity but then my laevigata plants started doing the same thing. Maybe when(if?) they flower they might reveal something different. A few years ago I got lots of seed from ‘Temple Bells’ x ‘Anemone’. I don’t have ‘Anemone’ any more but might try and find it again to re-try that cross. I lost all the labels from that cross and so had no idea what was what. Laevigata x banksiae sounds interesting too.
Wayside Gardens had a ‘selection’ they felt had larger leaves and flowers. It was a pretty plant. Sequoia also used to offer it. Ralph kept it sheared like it appears Simon does.
Did! That was in my old house in NSW about ten years ago. It was so beautiful and then I sold the house and the owner promptly dug it and every other plant I’d planted out and laid turf all over I planted it down here thinking it would take off the same as that one and I’d be able to keep it as a larger shrub as I did that one but it grows very differently and is a small plant here instead of a house eating montser. That’s when I moved to sinowilsonii instead. Similar growth habit but doesn’t mind our cooler climate and shorter growing season.
The only photo I’ve ever seen that shows any hint of ‘Pearl Drift’ coming from ‘The Mermaid’ is this one: 'Pearl Drift' Rose Photo . Apart from this I find it hard to believe that ‘Pearl Drift’ (or any of it’s other descendants except ‘Happenstance’ has any bracteata in it at all. I do think that ‘The Mermaid’ is worth the trouble working with it though.
First Mermaid is half Tea and New Dawn possibly contributed the 3n balance for tetraploidy to Pearl Drift that has abundant viable seed production and fertile progeny when combined with tetraploids.
However in my opinion PD has the bracteata mark.
When raising bracteata hybrids with Ht or Fl pollen it is stunning how little resemblance to bracteata many have.
On the contrary most will display the very glossy Pearl Drift foliage. And are to be expected a few percent recurrent dwarf F1.
Alas desease resistance is lost with bracteata phenotype.
Difficulties are germinating bracteata seeds and infertility of most triploid progenies.
Pierre, I would love to see some the photos of your bracteata hybrids. I have heard of them and think it would be very helpful (for me) to see some of the variation possible from this species and its crosses.
The little guy, ‘Immensee’ x bracteata, is putting on a bit of steam A much healthier shade of green now that it is inside and getting more ‘food’. Taken 5 minutes ago:
Only one is remaining from that group I had high hopes for…
I have no picture but guessing it is from a bracteata cross is impossible.
I raised these bracteata hybrids with Ht or Fl pollen more than ten years ago.
First time I sowed bracteata seeds that were not well cleaned and came out of vernalisation as a stinking funghal mass and germinated and grew like cress.
All ulterior brac seeds sowings achieved a miserable little percent germination and fewer thriving seedlings.
That is why I ceased the more so as bracteata desease resistance was lost.
And I shifted away of HTs & other mainstream roses…
)
I planted it down here thinking it would take off the same as that one and I’d be able to keep it as a larger shrub as I did that one but it grows very differently and is a small plant here instead of a house eating montser. That’s when I moved to sinowilsonii instead. Similar growth habit but doesn’t mind our cooler climate and shorter growing season.
A much healthier shade of green now that it is inside and getting more ‘food’. Taken 5 minutes ago: