Like any database, whether it be book, website, magazine, etc. one must take it with a grain of salt. Actually I have to agree with Paul regarding HMF. Of course it helps to know who is posting the information on there. One good thing, if there is an error and the pictured rose is not correct, someone “in the know” makses a comment and the error is corrected or at least the comment is posted to indicate doubt.
I find it much better than Garden Web when newbies with little experience would post with authority as to how hardy their rose of one winter was, etc. It takes experience and a certain wisdom to know that Mother Nature is generally one step ahead of us at all times.
Despite it not being perfect, HMF has much to teach us. It has gotten so that I won’t acquire a rose until I have studied the photographs on HMF where the roses have been photographed in actual garden settings.
Regarding Mr. Bernardella’s hybridizing, an article I read on him which was an interview shortly before he died was that his primary goal in his breeding of minis was to replicate the long, spiraled bud and bloom of the HT exhibitors’ pride and joy.
Jim
Discovering what a breeder’s goals are/were should clue you in to much about their roses. Bernadella wanted the “Kordes Peak”, much the same that Joe Winchell did. One of the easiest ways seems to be much inbreeding, which I know Winchell was notorious for. I know a few who used to grow his roses in the San Diego area who no longer will due to both their disease issues and more than a few simply defoliating after each flush of bloom. Joe sprayed regularly. To him, “disease resistance” meant it could make it between sprays without issues. Good enough for the 1950s/60s perhaps, but not now and definitely not for me. Kim
Jack and David,
In reviewing this thread your posts really stand out and shine in a positive way. Thank you both for your information and input.
Best of success Jack.
Chris
Chris…
I am one of the volunteers who has entered and corrected data in the HMF database for several years and have watched as the webmaster has added new enhancements that allows HMF to provide more information about the roses as well as crafting a research tool that continues to amaze me.
The “very disease resistant” radio button was clicked on ‘Caliente’ simply because the US patent states that the rose has “above average disease resistance”.
There are errors in the database and we count on the rose community to bring them to our attention.
But, more importantly, from my point of view, sharing your experience with a rose by putting up a COMMENT is one of the best ways you can participate in making the site even better.
Smiles,
Lyn
Two thumbs up for HMF!
Lyn and others, thank you for the work that you do to provide this excellent resource for all of us.
Jim Sproul
Caliente, while lovely, black spots for me about the same as all the rest of my minis. I think I read on here somewhere that minis tend to spot more readily because they grow low and their leaves are closer to the soil. That actually sounds quite logical to me since that’s where the spores live. My best resistant mini is Cinderella but she’s in a hanging pot, high up and away from most of the rest of the roses. Were she in the ground she’d probably spot as bad as all the rest.
I love and use HMF all the time. Probably at least once a day to look something up. I don’t know what I’d do with out it! You do have to look further than the first page though. I always look at the “Gardens” tab to see where it’s being grown. If I find glowing reports but they’re all from Southern California I seriously start to wonder about winter hardiness. If I find some gardens in New York, Wisconsin or Ohio I know a rose is probably going to be winter hardy for me. Disease resistance is so regional, and even localized in some cases, that that one is much harder to determine. But if everyone reports it as a black spot magnet across the continent I can bet it will be here too. I’ve also found that disease resistance can be seasonal too. While Angel Face, notorious for her spottiness, is horrible in my spring she actually does just fine in the fall when I usually get my second outbreak of black spot. I think the comment section is the most vital part and I’ve vowed to be better at posting my comments as I have been rather lax in doing so in the past. Which was bad of me particularly since there are fewer of us from Northern climes that post anything at all.
I want to state for the record that I understand that the late Mr. Bernardella received numerous ARS Awards of Excellence for his introductions including an AOE for Caliente. I understaand that this award requires 2 years of testing at the ARS test gardens sited around the country.
I personally hold a great deal of respect for these accomplishments just as I do for Ralph Moore’s work and for all those whose toils have the good fortune to be recognized.
Chris
I do not grow Grande Amore. I can say that Christoph Columbus is a better than average at desease tolerance HT
Grande Amore Kordes rating: black spot:3/4, mildew:2/4
Kordes comments: This variety is part of the brand new Eleganza-collection, a special select of young, healthy Hybrid Tea roses with attractive flowers and superb disease resistance. These floriferous Hybrid Tea roses are in a class of their own and bring carefree style to every garden.
About desease resistance ratings. For me most infos and assertions on that mater are definitely misleading. More dependable info is when a shrub or ground cover rose is rated “exceptionally resistant”. Verified from the tens of new roses I systematicaly try each year.
HT and other modern roses rating is relative. Including Kordes ratings.
Seil…
I guess it’s time to share my experience with miniature roses and growing roses in different climates.
It’s totally impossible to imagine the different climates in California as the zones, not even counting microclimates, can range from Zone 2 to Zone 11 with coastal, inland, and mountain climates all in one state.
I started my rose life in San Diego and volunteered at Tiny Petals, the nursery founded by Dee Bennett. The nursery carried many of the Ralph Moore minis and I once saw Sue, Dee’s daughter, dump a whole bench of roses because they had bs in that coastal climate. The same roses have been clean for me in a more inland climate.
I have far too many miniature roses growing in my garden in the mountains of northern California because Carolyn sent me over a hundred roses as a housewarming gift. Roses that you have reported to defoliate due to bs in your garden have been completely clean for me … an example is Sequoia Gold.
Every season the weather is different up here and this last spring, I saw more bs in the garden because we had a long and very wet spring. The bs disappeared as soon as the summer heat hit. Please note, I do not get summer rains so my garden is more arid than many that report disease.
Cinderella is clean, but is the first rose to be attacked by spider mites.
Technically, I am gardening in zone 8 or 7b, but mountain zone 8 is different than zone 8 on the coast or other parts of the country.
This is a garden of “survival of the fittest”. Digging rose holes in glacier slurry is hard labor. A rose has to be a solid plant in this climate before it earns that kind of labor.
I have found that the miniature roses are no more disease prone than roses of other classes. From my experience, I think disease resistance is more a factor of climate than the class of rose grown.
Smiles,
Lyn
Jim…
I wanted to separate my comments about miniature roses from a note to say “Thank you” for your “Thank You”. Working on HMF has been a a work of love.
I started the work simply because I wanted to understand roses better in general and had great admiration for the site. As I have watched it develop, I find that I enjoy playing on the site even more.
Smiles,
Lyn
I whole heartedly agree with you, Lyn. Disease resistance is so specific to location that my report of a black spot magnet on my block could and probably is worthless to my cousin one street over. As I’ve said before, my Midas Touch couldn’t KEEP a leaf on it and hers is gorgeous! And no, she doesn’t spray.
I do understand about how many differences there are in climate zones from place to place, in California and in Michigan, and probably in most states. Differences in elevation, or in my case which side of the shoreline you’re on, prevailing wind directions, temperatures and rainfall can all make disease resistance reports iffy at best. But it’s still important information to document and keep track of. With enough of it maybe something good will be discovered to help future rose breeders come up with roses that will be more widely disease resistant.
Jack,
I looked at Paddy and Solitaire. Paddy is a beau.
What I’d ask is if you noticed as I did the Kordes line in the heritage?
I’m increasingly convinced that for disease resistance, Kordes is a very good place to look. I’ve seen a Kordes plant that looked like plastic while nary another rose in the same garden was faring as well.
Hi sandandsun,
I’ve had over a hundred seedlings out of Solitaire. No seedlings out of Paddy Stephens yet but I’m still trying. As we all know great disease resistance if difficult to capture. Of these many seedling I have obtained one seedling with excellent disease resistance. It is a very average looking clear yellow HT. I’m planning on using it with Paddy Stephens and Dick Clark this coming year. Yes I have notice the Kordes line. It is quite apparent that McGredy knows good roses too…ha ha ha. btw Paddy Stephens I had to obtain from a fellow rosarian since the Paddy Stephens I ordered from Hortico was NOT true to species.
I ordered Paddy Stephens from Hortico, and I ended up with Tatton, lol, which was an equally good rose. Solitaire is hardier than Paddy Stephens, however.
In regards to Berdardella, I think his work is wonderful, but his scope was specific. Either youre neutral about it, find his work useful, or dislike the archetype he bred towards.
It’s pretty clear that repeat business/a satisfied customer is not part of the equation in Hortico’s business model. It’s amazing they are still around, honestly.
It’s a common thread. We just had a long running one on GW. As long as folks continue gambling by sending them money, they’ll continue to mis perform. They didn’t HAVE to thirty years ago and they don’t HAVE to now.
Does anyone else here remember the letter that circulated back in the early to mid nineties from the guy who claimed he was Hortico’s “European agent”, responsible for obtaining and shipping them the bare roots created in Romania and other countries? He sent out the letters in an effort to obtain payment from them, stating he upheld his end of their “contract” but hadn’t been paid. There was fear at the time the Canadian border would be closed so rose shipments would require similar efforts to European shipments.
I never heard the outcome. The border wasn’t closed, so he must have received his money. It did seem to explain several things about them though, such as how they were able to offer first year European and British roses virtually at the same time their introducers released them; how so many different root stocks seemed to be used, including the HT Bride’s Dream; and the extremely variable quality of their product. His claim was they received product from several other countries and frequently didn’t do much more than to change the address on the box. I can believe it.
I do know several years running, “Harry” contacted several people I know locally to request bud wood of anything new they’d planted. I heard the story some years back of Austin visiting the US and requesting his hosts to take him to Hortico. Reportedly, there was quite an altercation about them “stealing” his roses and very loud demands made for payment of “royalties”. It isn’t difficult to imagine based upon the number of his earlier introductions Hortico was responsible for commercially introducing and spreading across North America, preventing him from patenting them. Seems they weren’t “authorized”. They’re mainly those for which their commercial names are trademarked and have to be offered under their breeder codes without a contract. They’re also the ones he quickly “superceded”, replacing them with newer varieties and deeming them unworthy of growing in his books. I heard reports that once he got rolling in the US, if you wanted a contract to offer his new roses, you couldn’t sell any of this group. Arena didn’t pick up a contract, choosing to offer Perdita and Tamora instead as they grow well in many of the more arid SoCal climates, a good demand already existed for them and he didn’t have to pay royalties for them.
We had a very good local nursery who seemed to to a lot right called Hortus. They contracted with Hortico to bud fifty plants of Viru Viraraghavan’s russet HT, Coffee Country and pre sold them all to their customers. Hortico harvested the plants and sold them all to their customers, leaving Hortus to refund their pre sales. I know. I’d bought two, one for Barney Gardner and one for myself.
Based upon what I received years ago and what I’ve seen and heard others have received since, it has long seemed to me they sell the better quality plants through their wholesale division and fill the retail orders with the dregs. There have been far too many substandard plants sent out for that to be their usual product. I don’t see how they could continue selling a wholesale product so long if that’s what nurseries receive from them. Hortico’s “service” never changes, yet people continue to throw money their way. Why should they? They are oddly able to obtain roses no one else has (presuming they even HAVE what they advertise) and offer them nearly at the same time they’re introduced. They can mistreat customers seemingly forever and people STILL send them money. Kim
Jack,
Congrats. An improved yellow is always welcome. Can’t wait to hear how tall it is at the 4 yr point.
As with others I’ve noticed say here, I’m space limited and unlike Rad, I am not going in for growing under lights. My limits will undoubtedly limit my success, but I have limits, lol.
I think Barden’s Joyce is very exciting, but back to the space thing ONE of the reasons I’m interested in Lim’s work and also Bernardella’s and Moore’s, etc. is height. I want roses in the 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 foot height zone. I believe it was Phillip in Louisiana(?) who commented that in his area there are competitors for roses - jasmines, etc. It is true here too. And since my decades of gardening background is in perennials, I want roses that can grow in a mixed border with perennials and look height appropriate, not require the space of a shrub/hedge/tree.
Grand estates where space was no issue were rare enough in the old days and are ever increasingly rare now.
Plus we know once bitten by roses forever smitten, and wouldn’t it be nice if growing more roses presented less of an issue!
Adam & seil,
From the Pope John Paul II thread, I noticed that you like Angel Face the way I like Ebb Tide, the weak diseased thing. Well, I mention it because I noticed that Angel Face was a strong contributor (I think twice in the breed line) to Carruth’s Neptune about which I’ve heard very good things.
Chris