Thank you for your thoughts and ideas on the coupling groups.
I will look for indications of what you mentioned and its really ironic, that it might be the fact, that more mildew plants do have the blotch.
But: at least if we use tetrapoid plants and do have dominant main genes, that are coding for both, - mildew resistancy and the blotch, - we should be able to get a combination out of that, at some percentage, I think.
We should be able, to do so, theoretically, even if the infos where ALL coded recessively!
Rpp1 is one known dominant gene coding for mildew resistance and its coded on chromosome Nr. 3 in the rose genome.
If we do have main dominant coded info for the blotch on chromosome 3 in one partner(only the question if there is one or none, not questions about its shape or sharpness) on the same chromosome 3 from another partner in a cross, than we should at least be able to get a valid combination of Rpp1 and the blotch together in one plant, coded on some of the Chromosomes Nr. 3 … .
I know, there should be more factors for the blotch and also for powdery mildew (there hav been released papers on that topic recently in 2007).
But, the first step, for me, is to think about staking the claims (concerning possible partners for first crosses that combine healthieness and the blotch - and perhaps interesting colours, too) - and the next steps than can be to digg holes and search for REAL silver & gold. ))
I now realy think, that the eye spot or blotch of Rosa persica or Hulthemia Persica is perhaps going back to a very old genetically background, covering much more plants than we are ad hoc able to realise with our eyes and optical receptors.
This might be a complex of genetical factors, coded by a homeotic gene, just like some of them found in Arabidopsis (or - concerning the question “if there is an eye or if there is none” in … Drosophila and Humans. But - at least I don’t think zhat its the SAME for the hulthemia “eye”, so that should be more stuff for a bad LSD trip, I think. )) )
So: Perhaps the genetical background for coding for eye spots is inherent in at least some of our garden roses and wild species, - only one info from one chromosome misses … the info that is saying: “make it dark red, so that the humans are able to write about it in the internet”. …
So: Perhaps the genetical background for coding for eye spots is inherent in at least some of our garden roses and wild species, - only one info from one chromosome misses … the info that is saying: “make it dark red, so that the humans are able to write about it in the internet”. …
I dont know. Maybe. However, Potentilla is extremely closely related to Rosa – even to the point of cohabitating together in multiple areas of the world.
Yes, Potentilla is very close, but if even Geum has that eye info one should be aware that it is in fact NO WONDER that Rosa and even Eurosa can bear such genetical background.
They only published two species roses there. …
What about - e.g. - Rosa glauca?
Or others?
Well, i am excited to find out something about that.
Don, thanks for the link -beautiful photography! When I was a kid, I loved looking through some of the Life series books on nature that my Dad had. I remember the book on Plants showed “what the bees see” and was fascinated that they saw differently than we do.
Your suggestion does bring up what might be a very useful technique to select better prospective parents in crosses. I have access to a UV lamp at work so will try to bring in some blooms once I have several to compare. I am wondering if some of the hulthemia seedlings that don’t exhibit the blotch under normal light, might show it under UV? It will be interesting to see whether or not the blotch area itself fluoresces.
Arno, the apparent linkage to mildew, prickles, and gangly growth is broken without too much difficulty. I have some hulthemia seedlings that for all appearances, are just like modern upright, bushy roses. I even have some nearly thornless hulthemias (I didn’t think that was possible). And certainly mildew is easily overcome even in the first generation with ‘Tigris’ as shown by Chris Warner’s ‘Tiggle’, which resulted from a cross of ‘Tigris’ X ‘Baby Love’.
It won’t be long until the persica roses are as widely available as the striped roses.
CYTOTAXONOMIC VARIATION IN POTENTILLA FRUTICOSA L.
T. T. ELKINGTON11Department of Botany, The University, Sheffield1Department of Botany, The University, Sheffield
Summary
Potentilla fruticosa is a widespread species for which chromosome numbers of 2n = 14 (diploid), 2n = 28 (tetraploid) and 2n = 42 (hexaploid) have been published from wild populations. These are listed together with a number of new counts. A morphological study of North American and European plants shows that the diploids are hermaphrodite and the tetraploids dioecious, and that the diploids have smaller pollen and stomata than the tetraploids. These distinguishing characters are used to show that the populations of P. fruticosa from northern Europe are tetraploid and those from southern Europe, western Asia and North America are diploid. Subspecific status is given to the tetraploids and diploids; the tetraploid cytotype is the type subspecies and the diploid is named ssp. floribunda (Pursh) Elkington.
It is suggested that the centre of evolution of shrubby Potentillas is in eastern Asia and that westwards migration took place separately to the north and south by tetraploids and diploids respectively. The North American populations are most likely to have immigrated across the Bering Straits from north-east Asia. "
Totaly crazy to cross such things, but why not, - ifeven the chromosome counts would fit!?
My Persian Sunsets both arrived last night from Moore’s. They both have buds already. I am wondering if their flowers will last only 24 hours like the species persica. I have no other roses budding and all I can possibly do, when they do open, is collect the pollen for crossing later with my female stock.
I wish I had some pollen. These look like they open within a few days.
Last year my Persian Sunset bloomed for the first time. The flowers lasted 2 days and fell apart on the third day. Once the buds were ready, they popped open quickly here. As always, temperature influences the speed of opening.
Has anyone given any thought to a climbing Hulthemia? Moore’s catelogue describes Persian Autumn as a “tall arching plant” but I don’t know how tall this means for this particular plant. Does anyone know anything about the ability of Persian Peach to repeat? My daughter just got one. And congratulations to Paul on getting two Persian Sunsets from Moore’s. When I tried to order a couple of weeks ago they were out. Any ideas who to turn to to get one or two? Thanks. I used to hybridize like Treasure Trove – kind of a game using mostly Fairy Moss as a seed parent just because it was so easy – seedlings only a parent could love – quantity not quality. Now I am trying to help my daughter get going now that she has a big yard of her own. Have rejoined the association after nearly 30 years and signed her up too.
Arno, Persica x Potentilla sounds like a fun possibility. I wish you the best of luck!
Paul, if other blooms are close to opening, you might consider harvesting the ‘Persian Sunset’ blooms a day or two before opening and put them in the refrigerator in a ziplock bag with a damp paper towel. I have kept blooms for pollen like that for more than a week. As a family, I have noted that hulthemias tend to bloom earlier than modern roses. Fortunately, even the once bloomers will put out other flushes of blooms over the springtime and early summer.
Robert, many of the once bloomers could be used as climbers if trained that way. They tend to have very long canes. I like your idea though of perhaps breeding for repeat blooming hulthemias as climbers.
thank you, - its of course both, fun and nonsense, but I will do this crossing this season as it does not take long time to give Potentilla pollen onto a persica flower. (If there are enough … thats more the problem. )
Hi Robert!
Hulthemia hybrids crossed with climbing miniatures or creeping synstylae roses, that should really be a good idea.
Its already on my cross-list for this year, as I have got some very healthy climbers and now 4 different hulthemia hybrids.
For example one of them is the Lens rose “White Spray”, its one of the healthiest roses I know, - but only blooming seasonally.
Sounds like your top priority should be a repeat blooming White Spray. Out growing season here in New Orleans (zone 9) is so long that a once blooming rose has trouble competing with roses that bloom for almost 9 months out of the year. By the way we have been to Germany several times where we visit many cousins. One came here to visit us just a few months ago. Another is Renate Stendar-Feuerbaum, a famous artist who is preparing for a new exhibition. You can Google her name.
You are right! That’s of course the other direction.
To cross in such extreme roses like White spray in, e.g. varieties like Yvonne Rabier etc.
With these diploid varieties its much easier to get things one expects, than with tetraploid material, - and thats what I already did, too.
What I tried last year in around 100 different types of crossings here (head and hands where aching after these weeks), was to get more info about the motherplants I want to use in the future and the compatibility of some the crossings.
Another one of the crossings with “White Spray” that germinates very good now, has been “White Spray” x Rosa filipes ‘Kiftsgate’.
Here, for example, I want to know, if the genetic background for “hugeness” like its shown by filipes segregates 1:1 - what would be a hint that its coded single dominant in diploid rose species and varieties.
Very interesting, what you write about your german connections, as I know, that rose breeding and art does have more in common, than is widely expected.
Jack Harkness - breeder of the so far only F1 hybrids of Hulthemia persica / Rosa persica - also liked poems very much and wrote himself pretty good ones.
Only one hybrid between R. persica and another rose had ever been known. It was raised in the Luxembourg Gardens in 1836, and was called ‘Hardii’. It also has yellow flowers, paler but larger than those of R. persica, and it exhibits a fine red eye. Alec [Cocker] had about fifty plants of ‘Hardii’… He determined to raise a new race of roses from it, but after a few years he discovered that ‘Hardii’ was incapable of setting seed, infertile in pollen, utterly sterile. The answer, he decided, was to forget ‘Hardii’, and obtain the species which had borne it, R. persica.”
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