Anyone having any success using BA as a pollen parent? I’m looking for something with a lot of ‘R. soulieana’ in it that has some fertility either way.
I have MORsoul (String of Pearls), the Anytime X Soulieana cross if you’d like cuttings. There is also MORsoucrest, also known as Dawn Crest if you’re interested. Kim
Cuttings of MORsoul would be great! Thank you for the offer. Reading up on both I think MORsoucrest might get too big for my location. MORsoul sounds like it might work better for me. I’m looking to cross with minis and hoping to keep high disease resistance via Soulieana. Do you still have my address?
Thanks again for the offer Kim.
I can also offer you an established plant of MORsoul in a three inch pot, if you prefer to skip the rooting process.
That would be awesome Paul…thank you. Thank you as well Kim for the offer of cuttings.
You’re welcome. If Paul has it rooted, grab it and save time! Kim
My Morsoul just flowered for the first time, VERY cute flowers.
I’m trying to think how I could cross it with Double Red Knockout but the Knockouts make better pollen parents do they not?
The plant I received from Paul bloomed and I too think it’s cute. Is it safe to assume that MORsoul is a fertile triploid?
I wouldn’t assume anything about its ploidy, honestly. I don’t know about _‘Anytime’_s ploidy, and it could easily be a triploid, given its pedigree. I am of the opinion that Moore’s plant of R. soulieana is a bit of a mystery plant and may in fact be a hybrid. When Ralph used it in breeding, he regularly got repeaters from it, in the first generation. I have the same plant and found the same happens to me: many repeaters when using it as either seed or pollen parent.
Case in point: in 2010 I made a cross of a seedling (0-47-19 x self) X R. soulieana, and obtained only about a dozen seedlings. Those started blooming in June of this year and there wasn’t a moment when every one of these didn’t have a handful of blooms open. In fact, the five selections I kept from this group are still in flower now. This suggests to me that Ralph’s soulieana has a secret: its not a pure species. Or perhaps it has a mutation that has “broken” the once-blooming trait when its genes are passed on. Who knows?
Regarding MORsoul: no idea about its ploidy. It could easily be a diploid or a triploid. It doesn’t set seed at all, but that doesn’t exclude the possibility of it being a diploid. I have many diploid hybrids that are fully male fertile but completely incapable of setting seed. It happens.
I love a good mystery! Thank you for the background info Paul.
Am I interpreting correctly that Ralph’s soulieana and MORsoul are two different plants? If so how is Ralph’s soulieana distinguished from soulieana in terms of its name - if at all?
Or did I incorrectly infer a distinction?
Apologies Paul. I’ve reread the thread for the umteenthhundredth time and OK, they are not the same.
Given your report on your 2010 cross, my questions now are: Is it fertile both ways? And how do I get me some of that - Ralph’s soulieana? It sounds like a reblooming inheritance panacea!
MORsoul is a cross made by Moore, its parentage being ‘Anytime’ X R. soulieana’. It was being considered for release under the name ‘String of Pearls’, but failed to meet Moore’s standards. (It tends to look rather ratty in mid-summer, losing a lot of foliage and becoming quite bare; not an attractive feature) MORsoul has been used in breeding a few times, but to the best of my knowledge the only rose Sequoia Nursery put in commerce was ‘Baby Austin’ a cross of ‘Joycie’ x MORsoul.
The plant of R. soulieana Moore used to create MORsoul (and many other roses) is the plant I was specifically commenting on in a previous post. I have the same selection of R. soulieana and just as Ralph discovered, I found it readily generates a proportion of repeat blooming offspring when crossed with other repeaters. This is in contradiction to the species expected behavior; there should be no repeaters in the first generation. And yet, I have repeatedly obtained remontant seedlings when using it as either seed or pollen parent. The case I brought up earlier cites a specific cross of a remontant R. wichurana hybrid (specifically, a self-seedling from Moore’s own 0-47-19) X Moore’s R. soulieana. Few seeds germinated but I obtained about twelve offspring. Every one of these flowered for the first time in late May/early June and have continued through the entire year without pause, and are in fact still pushing out a few final blooms. I’d call that remontant, wouldn’t you?!
So, I suspect the selection of R. soulieana Ralph grew has genes that are either “broken” once-blooming genes (a mutation?) or the plant is in fact a hybrid of some sort. Whatever the case, it is one of the sturdiest, most reliable climbers I grow, never a disease spot to be seen and quite hardy in my garden (Many moderns of China/Tea descent are anything but hardy here) It blooms once a year for about 5 weeks and sets copious seed. It does not produce any blooms later in the season.
I hope that clears up any confusion about the plants we’re discussing.
Thank you very much Paul.
As I research for answers, knowledge, and help, your comments have and do carry the most weight for me. You are on my very very short list of living heroes.
“(It tends to look rather ratty in mid-summer, losing a lot of foliage and becoming quite bare; not an attractive feature)”
Do you know if disease resistance is recovered in F1 seedings?
Rob said "Do you know if disease resistance is recovered in F1 seedings? "
I have very limited experience using MORsoul in breeding; I didn’t like the results I was getting. Mind you, that was quite a few years ago and I was pairing it with all sorts of modern crap; there was no hope of finding improved disease resistance in the crosses I was making. I became less interested in working with it for other reasons as well, namely the fact that it exerted too strong a miniaturization force on its progeny. Most of the seedlings I got were small, awkward plants, and I didn’t want any of that; I was hoping for a percentage of plants that made the leap back to full sized, perhaps showing climbing soiulieana traits, but those never turned up.
It is conceivable that I may have a use for that plant yet, but I would employ it for very different purposes. I can see mating it with roses from the Radler portfolio, as many of those are fertile triploids, and MORsoul is likely either 3X or 2X as well. I can easily imagine crossing MORsoul with my seedlings from R. foliolosa or ‘Therese Bugnet’ or perhaps other “true” Rugosas. MORsoul is going to breed mostly pinks and off whites anyway, so why not approach pink Rugosas with it? Lots of options, but just not an avenue I am interested in pursuing at this time. I have opted instead to create a few of my own Soulieana hybrids for breeding, ones that do not contain ‘Anytime’ in their pedigree! (Michael will know what I mean by that!)
Oh, and thank you for your kind comments, Chris.
Thanks for relaying your experience with MORsoul Paul. I will use your suggestions this coming season. Will use Paprika, Peachy Cream, the Knock Outs that I have, Cape Diamond, Rugosa #3, Ruglauca and several others. For me, a bit of miniaturization will be a good thing.
Browsing HMF, I ran across Navigator, a 1925 cross of Soulieana X Radiance, which states it blooms in flushes through the season. Perhaps, there is a strain of Soulieana which produces repeat in the first generation and Ralph’s isn’t all that unusual? Ohio is a first generation Soulieana cross which states it repeats occasionally. I still think we need to get Ralph’s Golden Angel X Soulieana seedling passed around for more to work with.
Ah, yes. I hate Anytime with a passion lol. I call it the leafless geranium.
I’ll probably use MORsoul for pollen on a larger rugosa to try to create a shell pink rugosa … maybe. I dont know. I have my doubts, but MORsoul takes up nil room so its not so bad to keep around.
I’ve been tossing around using MORsoul with Rugelda, Keith’s Delight and some rugosa/glauca hybrids that I have and hopefully get some fertile, clean minis. Will use Royal Edward, Paprika and Peachy Cream as well.