Applejack - parentage and disease resistance.

Roses for Hybridizing
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The parentage for Applejack listen on HMF is this

Seed: Goldbusch

Pollen: Josef Rothmund x R. laxa (Retzius)

My experiance with Applejack indicates that it is very disease resistant. In Nebraska, I never sprayed it and it had no noticeable diseases.

I am trying to decide if one of the parents of Applejack could be considered as having the most influence w.r.t disease resistance.

What is r. laxa (Retzius) like? Does it have strong disease resistance? Same questions for Josef Rothmund.

Where am I going with this? I am most interested in the contributions of Goldbusch to Applejack. I have heard several times that Yellows tend to be more disease prone. That is a problem for me. Following Goldbusch, I get to Golden Glow and Gen Dale. I am fairly curious as to what Golden Glow and Glen Dale have contributed to Applejack.

Since both Golden GLow and Glen Dale are yellow, it would seem to me that, if they had good disease resistance, that they would be a good couple of roses for me to use. It seems that having R. wichuraiana in 2 of its parents could indicate that Golden Glow may have the possibility to pass along some good disease resistance as well as yellow color. Since it appears that Glenn Dale has fairly a weak yellow, I am planning on using it with Allgold and Cal Polly or even Ty (have no idea if Ty can be used).

Anyone have Glenn Dale or know about it and its disease resistance. Is it zone 56 winter hardy? It would be interesting to get Allgold and Genn Dale offspring with a stronger yellow and good disease resistance. I am not sure about disease resistance of Allgold but am assuming that it may not be all that great.

I also wonder how such a cross might do when used with Applejack. It seems that some roses combine well when they have some common parentage in the more distant lineage.

My Golden Glow has been a fairly hardy rose with little dieback with good snow cover. I have not noticed much in the way of disease, but my plant has been small and will only be finally be getting to size this year. Had 4 blooms last year. Anyone have a larger plant of Golden Glow and can comment on disease resistance?

My true hope is to be able to get some decent yellow yellow blend seedlings from crossing Glenn Dale with Allgold and Golden Glow with Allgold and then use any decent results with Buck Roses and my hybrid Spinosissima.

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Hi Steve, I think using ‘Applejack’ is a great idea. It is very healthy in MN. It does get some blackspot, but not much. I have some very healthy roses that trace back to it. The Rosa laxa clone (same clone used by Buck and is at the MN Landscape arb) it pretty disease resistant, but gets a little blackspot.

In my hardiness rating in the shrub rose garden at the MN Landscape Arboretum ‘Applejack’ had 90% and 70% cane survival without protection in 1999 and 2001 respectively and 0% and 20% of leaflets infected with blackspot in July of 2000 and 2003 respectively. R. laxa had 20% of leaflets infected with blackspot in July of 2000 and 100% cane survival in spring of 1999 and 2001.

I am not familiar with ‘Josef Rothmund’. ‘Applejack’ is a direct parent of ‘Summerwind’ in case you would like to use a more free blooming offspring instead.

Sincerely,

David

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I used ‘Goldbusch’ as seed parent last season and have seedlings now. I figure there will be a 50/50 chance for repeat blooming offspring with a chance for yellow.

Link: www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=49463&tab=21&lstTyp=16

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Steven,

Griffith Buck used Carefree Beauty and Sunsprite as the parents for Folksinger and Prairie Harvest. Applejack is a grandparent of Carefree Beauty. I don

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Paul,

Both Folksinger and Prairie Harvest are good roses. I have had both of them for quite some time. I didnt replace Folksinger when I moved to Idaho but did bring PH with me. Folksinger was fairly mildew prone for me.

One of the problems I have with almost all the yellow yellow blend Buck roses is that they fade quickly. Folksinger went from bud to fully open and bleached white in a morning. Prairie Harvest is more disease resistant but doesnt have the strong coloration that I would hope for.

Golden Unicorn has a great rich color, if you catch it in cool weather or in the morning. Same for Winter Sunset and Gentle Persuasion. If I had a secondary goal, it would be to come up with a improved Golden Unicorn and Winter Sunset. Both of which I love but am dissapointed with color longevity.

The buck roses that I will work with the most at first will be Applejack (tons of pollen), Hawkeye Belle (been troublesome for me) and Country Music (not worked with much yet).

One of the things I am hopeful for is that offspring of Genn Dale will work will with Applejack. I am very curious to see what happens when I use Applejack pollen on Genn Dale and Golden Glow.

I wish I had some reports on the disease resistance of Genn Dale and Golden Glow.

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Thanks for the info Steven. My rose garden is small but expanding and one of the classes I would like to add to is the Bucks. So any info on them is much appreciated. In fact I was going to post a thread for any recommendations.

One of the complaints of Hawkeye Belle is that the flowers ball up and turn brown in wet weather. So it

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My fav Bucks are Earth Song and Country Dancer; they are possibly the best all-round varieties that I’ve grown in past 25 yrs. Both are good seed and pollen producers; a Earth Song X Fragrant Cloud from 1990 is a very good seedling.

Quietness is starting to look very good also.

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Thanks Dave,

The more I check into the various roses, the more the Bucks stand out. They combine flower form, repeat bloom and disease resistance that seems to be unmatched by any other class of roses.

Earth Song is on my have to have list. Country Dancer is on my seriously considering list.

Quietness has flown under my radar so far; it is one that I have skimmed over. But now that I checked it out, it looks very promising.

Steven,

I checked into the descendents of both Glenn Dale and Golden Glow and they have been very prolific. So they are very good parents in that regard. I wouldn

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I think your idea of using ‘Glenn Dale’ and ‘Golden Glow’ is very good - the former, at least, is a very disease-resistant plant and introduced that (formerly Rosa wichurana, now R. luciae) quality into some of the Brownell hybrid teas. I’ve never grown ‘Golden Glow’ myself but my impression has been that it is also very disease-resistant.

My limited experience with ‘Harison’s Yellow’ has been that it does not pass on its yellow coloration well at all. It also doesn’t seem to contribute any meaningful blackspot resistance to its seedlings, so the other parent must be extremely good in that respect.

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When I lived in Omaha, I talked with a person who owned a vast majority of the Buck roses. In his opinion, Quietness is one of the best Buck roses. Very prolific bloomer and very healthy.

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So, I’ll be scratching Harrison’s Yellow off my list of plants to get. It was too good to be true; a hardy yellow with good disease resistance. But it doesn’t pass those qualities on to it’s offspring.

I checked out Golden Holstein a little more and it is prone to mildew. So it’s probably not the best plant to use either, unless you cross it with a highly resistant parent like Applejack.

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I grew Golden Holstein for five years and agree with the deep yellow color; but as for disease resistance …in my garden, Golden Holstein was a poster boy for both Black Spot and some additional fungal problems on the cane that led to massive cane die back regardless of season and regardless of serious fungicide spray program. I could not keep up with cutting back the problem canes.

I find Golden Unicorn to be a much stronger rose, especially in the no spray part of our gardens.

Applejack doesn’t rebloom but it’s very healthy, no spray. So is the hard to come by, once blooming Frank Skinner, of which there are some pictures at the link below.

Link: http://www.heritagerosefoundation.org/discus/messages/268/1164.html?1147092812

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Ann, Golden Holstein sounds terrible. That just goes to show that it is better to get actual testimonials from people than to trust what

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Re: ‘Frank Skinner’, more like almost impossible to come by! I ordered it from Hortico and ended up with ‘Martin Frobisher’. Que sera, sera.

Oh, and I also found that when crossed with less hardy roses, HY didn’t really pass its hardiness on, either - but I do have a few I’m still watching to see if anything improves with age. I wouldn’t cross it off a list based on my experience alone since I haven’t used it extensively, but if you’re trying for garden space economy, you could probably do better. I wonder if ‘Hazeldean’ might not be better, considering its yellow coloration has already passed through a sort of F1 filter and it has probably added hardiness and disease resistance built in. However, it’s nearly impossible to get, just like ‘Frank Skinner’ and J5; I’ve never come across any and I’ve definitely scoured the trade for them.

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Try this link for Ann’s message above.

Link: www.heritagerosefoundation.org/discus/messages/268/1164.html?1147092812

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Thanks, Pete, and y’all can nag me early to midsummer for open pollinated seeds of Frank Skinner. Like some of the other roses that bloom in late April, the seeds mature early and often even the O.P. ones get away from me.

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I grew Golden Glow and Goldbusch for some years when I first started trying to breed new and better things. Neither is outstanding for blackspot resistance in KS. I had a very nice OP once-bloomer from goldbusch that I called yellowbush. It eventually expired. I still have one I call evergold that came OP from goldbusch. It is hardy to near 0 F, blooms repeatedly in a doubloons color range but blackspots moderately badly. Flowers last only a day in this climate, maybe 2 in a mild one. That’s a common problem with things derived from spp or once-bloomers I find. Carefree sunshine does a bit better, 2-3 day.

I think that true yellow is basically a fading color. If you have some anthocyanins to make it a bit orange it may seem to last longer. Of course if you lay 4 doses of yellow over a good white in a tetraploid it will hold up better because the white soaks up some of the UV that fades the yellow. Remember yellow color means it is a strong UV and deep purple light absorber (< 400 nm to be precise). The substance in white roses is things like quercetin that absorb < 350 where our eye can’t see. A rose without pigments would look like wet tissue paper, so white is actually pretty complex.

To get a strong yellow you’ll have to cross two yellows. The 1st generation of yellow x anything else will be pale yellow. Simple gene dosage. Of course a socalled white like McGredy’s Ivory, or Silver Moon actually has some yellow tendencies that may add to what your yellow parent brings to the cross. And some of the richer-looking blended colors may have yellow underlying pink or red and make a contribution.

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I think it’s always best when referring to a cultivar to use its complete name. It’s ‘Dr. F.L. Skinner’, not ‘Frank Skinner’. Note this cultivar has the same parentage (‘Joanna Hill’ x Rosa spinosissima altaica) as ‘Fruhlingsduft’ and the flowers are similar in appearance. It is cold hardy to Zone 4, although it will perform relatively well (usually some winter kill) in Zone 3.

“To get a strong yellow you’ll have to cross two yellows.” Well, no, not all the time. For example, ‘Hazeldean’ (Rosa spinosissima altaica x ‘Harison’s Yellow’) is nearly as yellow as ‘Harison’s Yellow’. ‘Yellow Altai’ having the same parentage is a strong, bright yellow. It only has single flowers though.

Keep in mind that ‘Morden Sunrise’ contains ‘Sunsprite’, ‘Harison’s Yellow’, ‘Hazeldean’ and J5 in its pedigree. Lots of yellow there. Fertile both ways. This cultivar can get powdery mildew in the latter part of the summer. It’s blackspot resistant on the Canadian Prairies, but it likely doesn’t have great resistance in warmer and more humid climates.

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Sorry for the slip, Paul; I should’ve caught myself, too. ‘Morden Sunrise’ has indeed been awfully riddled with blackspot every time I’ve seen it in a nursery container (back in Minnesota) and so I avoided buying it, but that makes me curious to know what the various parents are actually contributing. Maybe the whole lot of 'em are tough to breed with unless you live on the windswept prairie, and it still seems as if a bright yellow is out of the picture. Henry’s (Rugelda x R-15) at least seems to give hope of brighter yellows from the likes of ‘Hazeldean’, but the rose itself may not even be hardy to zone 4 with all that influence from ‘Golden Showers’ and Rugelda. This is all slightly depressing - but goes to prove that we need to keep going back to making the species and near-species crosses that could dig us out of this “hardy yellows” hole once and for all. The available hybrids just don’t seem to be cutting it, so far.

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Has anyone used ‘Canary Bird’ or ‘Golden Chersonese’. They have good yellow color and don’t have any R.foetida in them.

They may not be as hardy as the others, but the may not be as prone to black spot either. Just a thought.