Anybody working with these species? Results? Impressions?

Just curious about a few species that have intrigued me, and if anyone can report on the results of actually playing with them.

  • R. soulieana. Love the greyish foliage and a good many of its descendants. I would love to some day hang a violet flower on glaucous foliage of something like fedtshenkoana. I note that purples and bicolors can be obtained (apparently) pretty close to the R. s. species, and a good number of healthy offspring are out there. (Does Moore’s R.s still exist?)
  • R. davidii. I’m mostly curious because of some of the purportedly very resistant roses that have descended from this species (e.g. baby love, and pretty lady) and wonder if it typically gives very healthy progeny, and how long it takes to hang features of various sorts on the descendants…
  • R. tunquinensis. Hey, a tropical rose just intrigues me. I cannot help but think it might offer something for BS resistance, no? I know some of you have played with it, and I’m curious as to experiences.
  • R. abysinnica. Here again, a very southerly and drought tolerant species that features into Basye’s legacy, among others, has been a species that intrigued me long before I knew of Basye’s use, though it appears to not exist in the U.S. save for a single plant in California. It just feels like a rose that oughtta give Texas-proof progeny.
  • Basye’s amphidiploid. This is one I have kinda coveted for some time. I just love the whole idea behind the beast.

Thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts/experiences.
-Philip, The mostly armchair hybridizer

Which Basye’s Amphidiploid, Philip? There are a few. I’ve been playing with the Amphidiploid 86-3 (Banksiae X Laevigata) for some years with a few results to show for it. Legacy supposedly contains the Rugosa X Moschata and I’ve played with it for 25+ years. I haven’t had the Rugosa X Moschata plant itself in some years. It requires ROOM.

Basye’s amphidiploid, the Legacy parent, with said R. abyssinica (which some consider a sub-species of moschata, I think?) as a parent is the one that intrigues me. A rose that is native to the scrub and mountains of Somalia, Ethiopia and surroundings has to be one tough customer, IMO. I don’t think anything in my garden could survive this terrain:
http://www.fotolibra.com/gallery/653534/simien-mountains-rosa-abyssinica/
I admittedly have wondered if Basye’s abyssinian rose is the same, however. Would love to source a plant from the region.
Did you ever play with this one, Kim?
[Duh… Edit: I just noticed you said you played with it for 25+ years… Results? Impressions?]

I just found Shoup’s “Star of the Republic” rose purportedly has R. abyssinica as a parent. I wonder where he obtained the pollen, and if it is pure. It evidently has some rebloom.

There are the Abyssinica at Santa Clara which is reportedly the plant given to Schoener by Selassie and the sole rose remaining at Franceschi Park in Santa Barbara which appears to be the same rose. I’ve not grown either, but have been offered them. No room! Most selfs I raised from the one you mean were huge, very angular and once flowering. There was ONE repeat flowering, pale, pearlescent pink single seedling which was extremely coarse, intensely prickly and HUGE. It seemed as fertile as the parent. I didn’t raise any seedlings from it because I sought prickle-free results at that time, but I did attempt to spread it around as far and wide as I could. I doubt if it exists anywhere.

I wrote a long reply, but apparently failed to submit, Kim. sigh At any rate, you had at one point shared cuttings of Legacy that never took, and as intriguing as I find that one, I’ve always wondered if B’s Amphi might have better mates from which to move forward than e.g. Commander Gillette. I have only Softee, Setigera serena, and Banksia lutescens in my arsenal of thornless roses at the moment, however.

Philip, it’s easy to obtain reduced prickles from 1-72-1, Jim’s L56-1, Lynnie, Indian Love Call and others I will mention as my brain starts firing on all 8 and they come to mind. I have Minutifolia (NOT a lightly armed creature by any means!) seedlings by L56-1 and Lynnie which are virtually without prickles. I also have Puzzlement (probably Stellata mirifica X Fedtschenkoana and also NOT lightly armed) hybrids completely without prickles by L56-1. I have a striped Lynnie X Kim Rupert seedling which is not only NOT a moss, but is virtually without prickles. 'Striped Lynnie' Rose Yet, a sister seedling is a very prickly, striped moss. I have several seedling from the L56-1 X Indian Love Call cross which are thornless and have provided thornless offspring in further crosses. This line is ultra vigorous with remarkably strong wood. I’ve rooted many three to four foot whips from it to use for standard stocks. Using the single pink seedling with Blue for You produced several mauve, scented, prickle-free offspring. Not an easy thing to do from Blue for You as it generally provides seedlings nearly as tortuously thorny as it is. Karen in Kerrville has the best one if you’d like pieces of it. I sent it to her in my quest to find ROOM in the back yard.

There is a Lynnie X Red Fed (L56-1 X Fedtschenkoana) seedling without prickles. There is at least one Nessie (Montecito X Mlle. Cecile Brunner) X Annie Laurie McDowell which not only repeat, but have no prickles. Pink Petticoat X Nessie has very few prickles, repeats and has tremendous scent. Lynnie X Basye’s Amphidiploid 86-3 has very few (large and sharp, but very few) prickles. Golden Horizon, Cal Poly and L56-1 have all created impressively prickly offspring with 86-3. First Impression X April Mooncrest has very few prickles and a number of its offspring are also almost without any.

Lutescens is a very tough nut to crack. There are seedlings out back which may have it in them, but it’s difficult to tell and they are a strange lot. Softee is a fun rose, but it makes some pretty weak, rusty babies. I gave up on it after “Soft Legs”, Softee X Legacy. Totally smooth and rusty as it could possibly be. 1-72-1 took nearly all the prickles out of R. Hugonis in 1-72-1Hugonis and selfing it produced a thornless double, 1-72-1Hugonis flore plena. I’m repeating that with Xanthina, Minutifolia and Primula to see “what if?”

I would suggest that whichever direction you choose to head off in, try to deliberately generate some triploid results (Serena is diploid as is Lutescens). Fertile triploids provide some pretty interesting results. The Rugosa-Moschata Amphidiploid is NOT lightly prickled. It is very much a “Marquis de Sade” plant with dense, large, very sharp prickles. None of the seedlings I raised from it varied much from it in the prickle department.

I have to say that the idea of 1-72-1Hugonis flore plena is just too cool. Did your roll of the dice give you any remontancy with that one? I’m assuming that’s just way too much to wish for, but also assume you are considering repeating that one. :wink: I like the idea of using yellow pimpernellifoliae with it, or a pimper seedling with a remontant parent. (If I’m thinking straight, the 1-72-1Hugonis flore plena has a 3:1 odds of having a remontancy gene in it, no?)

Sorry to hear about Softee. I considered her a best candidate moving forward with thornless yellow landscape shrubs. sigh

B’s Amphi certainly has the potential to yield thornless babies, in principal, in view of legacy, no? Did you ever cross with thornless cultivars? (I used to philosophize that thorns were a necessary part of the rose that made the charms that much more special, but I’ve gotten over that stupid notion.)

I have enough wonderful triploid yellows that I’ve gotten over my ploidy concerns. I appreciate the encouragement! LOL.

Thanks, Philip. There is a bit of remontancy with flore plena, but that may be due to climate more than anything else. 86-3 is pushing its third growth and flower bud flush; Xanthina is pushing buds for the third time this year; and Stellata mirifica is also flowering. Yes, I continue planting self seeds in hopes of finding more interesting results from it. One of a previous year’s selfs hid some blooms from me I hadn’t seen until friends from up north visited yesterday to bring me a double flowered R. Spithamea and a lovely R. Foliolosa they had obtained from Santa Barbara Botanical Garden and helped straighten out its identity. Perhaps using a Pimpernellifoliae with it might work for you in Texas, but I avoid them here due to the stem and leaf “crud” they develop. I love Golden Wings, but the plant looks like trash too much of the year from the crud. It isn’t a disease as nothing alleviates the appearance. That was one of the reasons I wasn’t too awfully disappointed when it appeared Dr. Mills would never make it over here. Originally, the information was it was simply Radiance X Hugonis, something I found quite intriguing, but when it was further theorized it also contained Rugosa and Spins, that sealed that as neither do well nor look good in my conditions (previous nor current). Fortunately, Dr. Mills doesn’t have the cruddy appearance I feared it would, and it tosses occasional later flowers in this climate! It doesn’t set seed and its pollen isn’t working on anything yet. Flore plena hasn’t set hips and nothing has resulted from its pollen yet, either, but I continue trying. Who knows what the genetic probability for repeat in it is? 1-72-1 is tetra, Hugonis is diploid so the seedling should be triploid. It IS highly fertile, both directions.

Keep trying Softee. You may hit on the right mate for it to alleviate the rust issues. It SHOULD be worthwhile as both of its parents made some really nice things. I’ve wondered about using Paul Barden’s 42-03-03 instead of 0-47-19 to attempt to recreate Softee, but it hasn’t been that urgent. There are SO many other interesting directions to explore, it falls through the cracks. No, there weren’t that many thornless things around (or, I wasn’t as familiar with what possibly might result in “thornless”) when I had The Probable Amphidiploid. My self of it resisted the limited efforts I made with it and there were also many other more interesting directions then. That was about the time Oadefed (s), Dottie Louise then Lynnie were born, and they raised far more “what if?'s” which demanded immediate exploration, so the other went on the back burner.

Prickles DO perform many functions. I don’t know how much “armature” they provide as things which eat them don’t seem to care, but they do allow elongated plants to “climb” by anchoring into supports, fostering further elongation. Dense prickles (think Minutifolia) help collect water from fog and the dense hairs on ovaries often function like Velcro, helping to spread seeds by sticking to fur and clothing.

I initially “worried” about ploidy when I sought a species to play with. That’s what led me to Fedtschenkoana. Well, that and it’s “repeat” flowering. I figured starting with matching gene counts should help prevent sterility issues due to “triploid” creation. I spoke to Mr. Moore about it at length and he admitted that while he was aware of the ploidies and found them interesting, he didn’t otherwise pay attention to them. “The rose will find the way!” was his standard response. Seems he was right, doesn’t it?