Alain Tschanz in Switzerland doesn't have Tigris, either?

The online catalog of Alain Tschanz is wrong, too? I see Acton Beauchamp is out of stock.


I mailed them last year and I was a shocked when I read what they charge for shipping. I’ll think about it now you mentioned Alain Tschanz…maybe it’s worth it…

I think I’m doing it, they got R. Minutifolia as well! I was looking for this one to.

Hi you!

A few very good things happened.

As you know, here in Europe it is not easy to get access to Rosa persica hybrids.

And one thing I would really like to try is a backcross of some of them to the Grandma herself.

Also crossings with healthy or even resistant roses would be interesting. …

The story for me so far, concerning Rosa persica: Since April 2005 I am growing my own Rosa persicas from seeds which I got from a friend of mine who comes from Tashkent, Uzbekistan, and where persica sometimes grows like weed.

Here are some fotos that show my seedlings, placed on

And now I surprisingly got two plants of Ralph Moore’s great Hybrids.

It’s just an honour to be able to breed with such plant material!

One of the two is “T33” (Persian Sunset).

The other one is “T9”.

Does anyone know here, what “T9” will look like?

And, if it has been released yet, under a certain name?

I am not sure, if these two plants will already flower this season, because ofcourse they had been cut back for the Transport.

And so there is not too much old wood on them … .

But - thats really not the Problem at all, because, I hope I will have got enough to do, with Rosa persica herself, this year!

This year I will try a few pollinations, if god helps me and if I will get more than only one flower from the 21 plants. :wink:

So far, none of my two pollinations (each on one flower only) did have success.

But the plants where baby plants at that stage … so I might be more successful this year.

In 2 to 3 months I will know more, I think! :slight_smile:

Greetings from Germany,



OMG I’m jaleous!! And it grows like weed…

It was out of order at Tschanz when I contacted them. Can your friend sent some weedseeds to Holland if it’s possible?



Hi! :slight_smile:

I myself could do so, but as I will pollinate every flower I can get from persica, there are no pure persica crossings in sight.

Seeds from Uzebkistan are also difficult to get for me at the moment, as I got no contact to my friend since 1 1/2 years, I myself would have tried it once more with a few seeds.

The reason, why I like to have as much generations of different parents of persica as possible, is:

I think its good to have biological variability in the involved genes.

So, if a crossing later brings same chromosomes with different info of the persica genome together, it should be better for the fertility and the viabilty of the resulting hybrids.

Thats also a reason, why I think it should be a good idea to backcross some of the already existing hybrids to persica.

The other reason is - what Jim mentioned in another thread - that as much as possible genes that are coding for the blotch should be conserve in the resulting hybrids.

And accumulation of those genes also is a reason for the backcrosses.

Greetings to Holland (and the fields of weed :slight_smile: ),


Hi Arno, Bo and Timo!

O.K., this off topic.

I am going to the hospital the next days and I would like to take a chance to tell some ideas.

There are some varieties joining us in breeding.

As far as I know, Timo and Bo and me are working on Clare Grammerstorf.

I am together with Arno working on hybrides with high resistance against different populations of blackspot and against powdery mildew.

Further, Arno is the european specialist on hulthemia hybrides, in my opinion.

Please contact each other an share material.

Best Regards


Hey Arno,

Congratulations on locating some of Mr. Moore’s hulthemia hyrids! I really like the coloring on T33. I am familiar with T2 and T3, but not T9.

The new seedlings (sixth generation hulthemias) have started germinating. I am hoping for a more defined blotch as they (fifth generation hulthemias) have been backcrossed with each other.

Jim Sproul

Hi Ren

So for the Moore Hybrids of Rosa persica my state of knowledge is:

T2 = ? = ?

T3 = ? = ?

T9 = ? = ?

T33 = Persian Sunset = Tetraploid

There are some released hybrids - so I think there could be perhaps more similarities and information.

Of course the “Tx” roses also can be only unreleased ancestors of nowherdays already released plants.



Hi Rene,

It will be a big question if I get Clare Grammerstorf this year. I ordered it but the seller was on vacation till mid-week. So I wrote an email thursday but didn’t receive any mail back. Than I get to know if it’s still available. (Which i hope!)



On Helpmefind is nearly every info hidden in the “akas” one needs to answer my question from above. :slight_smile:

So for the Moore Hybrids of Rosa persica my state of knowledge is now:

T2 = ? = ?

T3 = Morthree = Persian Light = ? Triploid ? (No hips!)

T9 = Mornine = Roses are Red = Triploid

T33 = Morthirtythreebee = Persian Sunset = Tetraploid

O.k., that has been all, what I needed to know … .

Only Jim’s “T2” now is still open.

Could be one of the left types (Persian Autumn, Persian Flame, Persian Peach) or an ancestor of nowerdays released hybrids.



Here are the links to helpmefind:

Persian Sunset



Persian Light

OK “T33” could also be Persian Autumn, according to the aka: MORthirthree

But the main thing will be, these two types are easy to distinct, if the plants are flowering one day. …


I thought Moore didn’t ship to Europe? So moors roses are coming to Europe in the near future?..that gives some perspective. :slight_smile:

Hi Timo!

Yes, but also look at that hybrids from Warner, they seem to be more healthy, - although a rose like Persian Sunset is really a extremely nice rose, of course.

It has a kind of character, thats it, I think … .

But if I understood it right, Warner will release some of his healthier hybrids (at least one of them) in a good amount this year or next.

The other thing:

If there is a good number of flowers on my bushes of Rosa persica this year, I will pollinate one flower for you.

But, really, I can’t tell it now, because I waited for such a long time, and this year eveything seems to fit so far: My setting here is now perfect, to run a good amount of test pollinations.

Only there have to be enough flowers on Rosa Persica … .

Remember: 2006, in the second year, 1 flower. 2007, in the third year 1 flower.

And now? - Lets see … . :wink:

Greetings from Germany,


Oh boys.

Sorry, I am writing too much, here. :slight_smile:

But its not possible to rewrite the own postings here in the forum, so I always have to post a new comment, if I have a new idea. :wink:

On thing that is an addition to the above thoughts:

Moore is a man with sense of humour.

Coud it be like this:

T2 = ? = ?

T3 = Morthree = Persian Light = ? Triploid ? (No hips!)

T9 = Mornine = Roses are Red = Triploid

T33 = Persian Autumn = Tetraploid

T33bee = Morthirtythreebee = Persian Sunset in an open pollination (“bee”) with a halo rose = Tetraploid

Greetings from Germany,


Sorry, I left out one aka, above, now it should clearer, what I meant:

T2 = ? = ?

T3 = Morthree = Persian Light = ? Triploid ? (No hips!)

T9 = Mornine = Roses are Red = Triploid

T33 = Persian Autumn = Morthirthree = Tetraploid

T33bee = Morthirtythreebee = Persian Sunset in an open pollination (“bee”) with a halo rose = Tetraploid

Arno, that will be great if it works and you can provide me some seeds. That would be wonderfull!

You’re not posting to much, it’s a Hulthemia persica topic so tell all your stories and foundings. I think people appriciate it.

On your pictures I noticed that you created a little “dessert” in a huge pot. Is this the first year they are in this environment?

Hi Timo,

no, since I read, that they like higher pH, I thought about how to manage this from the beginning of this little challenge.

And so I drove 20 km from here to a place, where they built a few new houses and took lots of pure clay from there.

Just this pure clay, mixed with yellowish red sand from the area here (not too fine sand like they use for playgrounds, be aware of that, because this would extinct the urgent rates of oxygene in deeper areas of the pots) and I mixed crunched limestone in this whole substrate, too, to make it perfect.

No “black” parts of substrate at all, just mixed clay.

That makes the “desert-effect” on the pictures, you mentioned.

Tis way the pH is ok and the roots have the environment, they seem to need.

Meet you,


Excuse me, new stuff for me, so i am still too confused … .

T2 = ? = ?

T3 = Morthree = Persian Light = ? Triploid ? (No hips!)

T9 = Mornine = Roses are Red = Triploid

T33 = Persian Autumn = Morthirthree = Tetraploid ?

T33bee = Morthirtythreebee = Persian Autumn in an open pollination (“bee”) with a halo rose = Persian Sunset = Tetraploid


Thats what I meant. …