A rant about those "bloom machine"- type roses!!

Rose Genetics Ploidy Level
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1

I am totally all for “bloom machine” roses.

I also have no clue really about the genetics of remontancy beyond some simple notions (yes I am happy to use the term “remontancy” whether it is grammatically correct or not…wateva).

All I really understand about remontancy in roses is that for diploid roses, two copies of the “remontancy gene” are required in the (diploid) offspring seedlings for them to become truly remontant.

If I just stick with this simplistic model for a minute, do triploid offspring require 3 sets of repeat genes and tetraploid offspring require 4 sets of repeat genes to become true flower repeaters? Or do higher ploidy roses require only two sets just as do diploids to express remontancy? I am guessing that as ploidy increases from diploids to higher ploidies things get very very complex when it comes to remontancy…is there evidence out there for that assumption?

Now venturing into more complex stuff (at least for me):

Did I or did I not read somewhere something about a theory that states something or other to do with non-remontant species roses having some ancestral “essential inhibition for flower repeater genetic makeup”, and repeat blooming in such roses comes about when genetic influences are bred into the non-repeat rose genetics, which causes degrees of “blocking” of the ancestral inhibition of flowering, in other words a double negative, leading to remontancy…yes/no??

o_O

Lets face it everything about genetics is all very COMPLEX for some of us here (the mind boggles LOL).

…and while I’m at it, another question please:

What is the latest thinking about what is important in getting the “bloom machine-type” remontancy happening…is there a breeding formula that we can hear about which can bring about this seemingly super-remontant state??..do these bloom machine roses have extra doses of the “inhibitor to the inhibitor of remontancy factor” in their genetics?? (or using a more simple model, are these bloom machine roses ones where there are more than 2 copies of the remontancy gene… e.g. triploids which might have three copies and tetraploids which might have four copies of the “repeat gene”, conferring the extra flower power??)

Actually there are too many questions here…

RANT OVER

…

2

OK, there are many people here who actually know things about this, but I’ll throw in my amateur understandings.

Tetraploid roses do indeed need all four genes to even consider being a repeater, I think.

It’s all very interesting. Why are there some roses like William Baffin (very weak repeat if any, for me) and Prairie Joy (not as bad, but definitely not a bloom machine)? Is this bloom power thing ever a additive characteristic, like hardiness, so the progeny will end up somewhere in between the parents?

There have been interesting discussions on here of whether the rugosa type of rebloom is a different type of reblooming, and maybe just one very long single bloom period.

And the issue of juvenile remontancy. I remember Paul Barden claiming that some of his heaviest repeaters didn’t bloom at all the first year. What’s up with that? Yet some rugosa seedlings (hybrids, I guess) will bloom as juvenile plants.

As far as a breeding strategy, just use Rainbow Knock Out and cross it with everything, eh? I have a few RKO x William Baffin seedlings this year, and we’ll see what they do. My suspicion is that Baffin will transmit a dominant gene for poor recurrence to a certain percentage of its offspring that will overrule RKO’s bloom power in those cases. My KO x WB, however, is a real bloom machine.

It’s fun to be able to post our somewhat ignorant speculations here without all of the super-knowledgable folks belittling us. We’re lucky to have such a great group of people here.

3

Too right, we are!!

4

George,

Great question, I look forward to the answers. May I add to it and ask while the questions are being answered can each author add their own list of recommended authors and websites for further research?

Websites that have been very informative for me are

Paul Barden: Old Garden Roses and beyond The Rosey Gardener

Texas A&M University http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/rose/index.html

Bulb and Rose http://bulbnrose.org/Roses/breeding/rose_brd.htm

Henry Kuska http://home.roadrunner.com/~kuska/index.html

Blogs that will be familiar to most members but for those new to RHA or perhaps those looking to see what has been tried or recommended by more seasoned hybridizers

Jim Sproul http://sproulroses.blogspot.com/

Kim Rupert http://pushingtheroseenvelope.blogspot.com/

Paul Barden http://paulbarden.blogspot.com/

5

Thanks David. Joe, I wonder how much of Baffin’s rebloom is climate dependent? It flowered most of the summer in the mid desert.

6

Kim, I been looking at the tag of Touch of liberty all day and know where to get a cutting. I like the plant and from your blog now know a little about it. One to add this year. Neil

7

I’m still waiting for my Rosa rugosa alba x Livin’ Easy seedlings to bloom. I think they germinated in … 2008? The good news is that while they appear to have plants like Robusta, there is no blackspot. The bad news is that they have thorns like Robusta, which is pretty common =/

8

If you can find it over there in the USA , the rose Wendy (schuurman NZ). Most awesome rose to breed from, the offspring give you endless repeats which are very very quick. You will see new flowering wood developing just as the first flower opens. Here are three crosses using wendy which bloom their hearts off.

Dandy Andy ( Wendy X Scentimental)

[attachment 476 dandyandy62.jpg]

Lemon Sunrise (Wendy X An unknown HT)

[attachment 477 lemonsunrise…jpg]

Bamako ( Wendy X Abraham Darby)

[attachment 478 bamako5.jpg]

These are only some of the Wendy crosses. Another interesting factor with this rose is , the F1 crosses when crossed with Floribundas or HTs , the F2 offspring inherit a sort of hybrid vigour , which growth and flower size increase.

9

I love those masses of blooms, very nice. Any fragrance showing up? and how does Wendy do with high saturation colors?

10

Thanks Jackie, Wendy offspring do not produce much scent in their blooms . With the colour saturation, it does dilute the colour down some what but not to bad, here are a couple which held colour quite well.

Skippy (Wendy X Gold Bunny)

[attachment 479 SKIPPY02.jpg]

Free Styler (Wendy X Hot Chocolate)

[attachment 480 FREESTYLER.jpg]

Kilmeny (Wendy X Europeana)

[attachment 481 Kilmeny1.jpg]

This is a typical flowering characteristic of Wendy’s influence, large numbers of buds per cane. One of the Wendy X Abraham Darby

offspring sent up a flowering cane which had a staggering 189 flower buds. Athough the flowers sort of looked cute, the bloom form was not that good and the plant was shovelled.

11

That’s a wonderful thing about such mass bloomers, though. The individual flowers don’t have to be spectacular as long as they are healthy, vigorous, with a decent color and have it all the time. Who cares if each isn’t a show winner or corsage? It’s the density and continuity of color that makes it a winner.

12

I can picture a mass of ‘Skippy’ looking really, really appealing in the landscape, those are nice colors, not that the others were not–just that pastels do sometimes need a nicer flower form or fragrance to appeal to me, but give me a jolt of color and the form and fragrance isn’t as important.

13

Dandy Andy looks awesome.

14

When you do this (Wendy X Smooth Buttercup) flowering is awesome .

Planet Earth (Wendy X Smooth Buttercup)

[attachment 484 PLANETEARTH.jpg]

Vanilla Skies (Wendy X Smooth Buttercup)

[attachment 485 VANILLASKIES1.jpg]

[attachment 486 VANILLASKIES.jpg]

15

Warren,

Lovely roses, lovely pictures. I looked up Wendy on HMFR. I think 3 are listed. Is yours the mini that was hybridized in New Zealand?

If so, listed as available only there. It is also listed as armed with thorns. I find it interesting that is has produced a number of smoothies for you though I realize in most of these cases, the other parent is a smoothie.

Jim

16

Once again, Hi Dave!!

That’s a great question and I will try to explain without being too confusing. (You’d probably laugh right now if you knew how much I confuse myself!!)

I’m going to start with a clarification here. I’ll assume that you mean everblooming when you refer to remontancy.

Yes, you are right when you said that diploids need 2 copies, triploids need 3 copies and tetraploids need 4 copies of the everblooming gene.

Once the rose has the ‘go switch’ so to speak for everblooming, then several other genetic factors come into play to tell the rose how much to bloom.

What are those other genetic factors? No idea.

Working with roses can be difficult for several reasons. One is that it’s difficult to get funding for genetic studies (mostly because roses don’t feed people…at least that’s what they tell me!).

[size=small]“Did I or did I not read somewhere something about a theory that states something or other to do with non-remontant species roses having some ancestral “essential inhibition for flower repeater genetic makeup”, and repeat blooming in such roses comes about when genetic influences are bred into the non-repeat rose genetics, which causes degrees of “blocking” of the ancestral inhibition of flowering, in other words a double negative, leading to remontancy…yes/no??”[/size]

Well, I don’t quite know which theory you are talking about here…

However, you can think of the everblooming gene as a defective copy of the once blooming gene.

Does that make sense?

[size=small]"What is the latest thinking about what is important in getting the “bloom machine-type” remontancy happening…is there a breeding formula that we can hear about which can bring about this seemingly super-remontant state??..do these bloom machine roses have extra doses of the “inhibitor to the inhibitor of remontancy factor” in their genetics?? (or using a more simple model, are these bloom machine roses ones where there are more than 2 copies of the remontancy gene… e.g. triploids which might have three copies and tetraploids"[/size]

No formula that I know of! I can tell you that quite by accident, we created a few roses that literally bloomed themselves to death. And, they were diploids! So, I don’t think it’s going to have anything to do with the ploidy level.

BTW: Beautiful pictures Warren!

17

Hi Nat!

yes, I guess I meant everblooming when I wrote remontancy…thanks for the clarification there.

So I gather then for roses the everblooming gene is equivalent to the repeat flowering gene, is that right?

I would like to thank you so much, you have explained it all so beautifully, now I feel totally “unconfused”.

:O)

18

What’s wrong with the term “remontancy”? It just shows how cosmopolitan some of us English-speakers are. :wink:

19

What’s wrong with “remontancy” is unless you’re well-read, most have no idea what you’re talking about.

20

Phillip,

I think the problem is not so much with the term “remontant” as with the misuse of the term.

All too often people will say that a plant is “remontant” just because it happens to pop several blooms–maybe even a large cluster–after the early bloom season. In an area with a very mild winter, for instance, Rosa bracteata will often have a scattering of flowers out of season. Likewise, in some climates ‘William Baffin’ is said to repeat its bloom. Yet, R. bracteata is not truly remontant, and neither is ‘William Baffin’. Nor is my R15-01. It blooms in early spring for about 3 weeks, and then 2-3 weeks later it has a few more blooms for about a week.

In each of these cases, the flowers are on new growth emerging from old wood. With R. bracteata and Wm Baffin, the late flowers come later because of environmental conditions (maybe not enough winter cold, or other dormancy-inducing factor, such as drought) to make all the new growth emerge at the normal time. The result is that some new growth simply comes later, maybe even in the fall, and with it, flowers. Abnormal conditions lead to abnormal blooming. Those who grow azaleas and rhododendrons (and some other spring-flowering shrubs) will recognize this sort of “remontancy.”

With Wm Baffin I have encountered a new reason for reblooming. For a good many years, Wm Baffin was free of disease. But for the last 5 years, it has been slammed by a leaf disease and is usually nearly leafless by the middle of July. When it puts on new leaves, it also throws a few clusters of flowers, all on canes which emerge from old wood. I could probably cause the same thing by cutting it back about a month after it blooms the first time.

With the R15 and some other large-growing roses, some new growth comes as long canes instead of axillary stems. Even if the long canes emerge from the old growth at the same time as the short axillary shoots, they do not reach their full length and produce flowers until 2-3 weeks later than the early flowers. Thus, the “second season” on R15 is always terminal clusters on canes of maybe 24" length, while the main season is on axillary stems 3-6 inches long.

Sometimes after a late summer dry spell followed by a rainy spell, once-blooming roses will have a second bloom cycle. This one is not as prolific as the first. It is caused by the weather–the dryness makes the plant go dormant, and when it begins growth again after the rainy spell it does what it normally does when coming out of dormancy–it blooms. Some once-blooming roses are more easily fooled than others, and they have gained a reputation for “remontancy.” But they are not truly everblooming.

Everblooming roses bloom on new growth emerging from the current season’s growth.

I would suggest that we use either “recurrent” or “everblooming” to describe reblooming that occurs on new growth emerging from the current season’s growth. The term “remontant” has become unclear because of misuse. Strictly by definition, “remontant” does mean reblooming, but it does not suggest the reason for the repeating of bloom. Everblooming has a better chance of being understood in the way we mean it.

Peter