Getting back to the subject at hand, David, are you familiar with the Lens hybrid musk/mutabilis crosses? Plaisanterie comes to mind as one that might interest you, though I only know it from photos and third-hand reports. It should certainly be one or two zones hardier than Mutabilis, and always looks like an attractive plant in photos.
I suspect that this, or a related rose, might in fact be a parent of Happy Chappy, now that I think about it…
Thank you Phillip. I’m really excited about this rose. I got cutting of it from Cass last fall and have some young plants. I’m excited to hopefully make some crosses with it this summer. I did a chromosome count and it is diploid.
Thanks again,
Sincerely,
David
Hi you,
there is another one that might be of interest:
Jumping Jack from John Scarman, who is living and breeding in Southwestern Germany.
This Rose is smaller and more for groundcover.
Greetings from Germany,
Arno
Link: www.landhaus-ettenbuehl.de/index.php?mod=20&catid=1100&PHPSESSID=8f9r92ff42103k0ctui7vo2tk5
Hi Arno,
Do you have good experience with Scarman’s roses? He has a lot of interesting hybrids on his website (www.landhaus-ettenbuehl.de), but I never heard anyone with experience with his roses. (I am not well connected to German gardeners on the web).
Rob
Hi Rob!
I have tried several, they are as good as the mainstream some even better!
(But I didn’t try this “Jumping Jack” because I myself wanted to breed with the original mutabilis, as its colourization is deeper as here with the obviously existing synstylae influence.)
But there are interesting types: His “Scarmans Velvet China” for example is a “Nigrette” type of roses, perhaps with a bit more of China Input.
It is much healthier than Nigrette, so for these crossings with dark red roses it might be one of the best partners.
He breeds with some of the healthier old roses, just as Austin did, but instead of Austin, he really looks for some healthier descendants then … .
Nonetheless, I tried some of his roses, but now only still have “Scarmans Velvet China” here, because its really outstanding, with its dark flowers and good parfume - and with its pretty good health.
As I said, the other ones are as good as the mainstream, - but I am using only the most healthy roses for breeding (or those which have at least unique traits within).
Greetings!
Arno
No-one ever answered the question concerning Comtesse du Cayla… HMF lists it as having loads of descendants… I’ve just struck a batch of cuttngs and hope to use it myself… I find ‘Mutabilis’ a better pollen parent than seed parent… its seeds continue to fail for me.
Well, its listed as a China but its pretty much a tea rose. La Marne, a classic, is bred from it and a polyantha. La Marne looks like a very multiflora-ish floribunda that blooms a lot. So, CduC obviously has potential, but probably comes along with the pitfalls of most tea rose types – color limitation, cold tenderness, the loathing of being pruned and mildew.
Yeah, Chinas seem to be often awful seed parents.
The hardest part regarding the majority of the roses in this thread is that any traces of yellow found in these roses is fleeting and difficult to capture with each generation. I am unsure as to where the yellow of the indica rose clan comes from (I am guessing as trace amounts in species) but it degrades quickly in light, but they do usually give off scent from this. The yellow is definitely vastly different than the yellows descending from the pernetianas. Tip Top, one of the first roses to merge tea-yellow with persian-yellow, only has a glimmer of primrose that fades to white quickly. In contrast, Lady Penzance is a hybrid between Rosa foetida bicolor and Rosa rubiginosa, another briar rose with no yellow, and contains yellow nearly as strong at its parent. There are more examples of this general pattern but the point is that the yellow in tea descendants seems to degrade quickly, even if coupled with the persian yellows. That is always something to keep in mind when using any of them.
I finally got a yellow polyantha from Danae x Leonie Lamesch after several tries/years. But the yellow is so pale of a primrose that it goes white if it is hot out. I anticipated this but it is still frustrating. Franscesca, a descendant of Danae and one of the few examples of good yellow saturation when tea-yellow and persian yellow mixes, still degrades to white quickly. This pattern pretty much persists for several generations of adding in pernetianas until the likes of Golden Showers, Sunny June and High Noon read their heads. It helped that hybridizers also improved the potency of color in the pernetianas with roses like Sister Therese. So, even if I was to cross my hybrid with something like Golden Horizon or Golden Angel(yellow triploids) in the hopes of creating a good yellow repeat-blooming diploid, it would still likely take several generations to get saturation. Also, we dont specifically know if being tetraploid and yellow has an advantage for saturation. It is probably likely.
At any rate, the overall point is that this all is the likely situations one will run into when working with this subject area of roses in breeding. There are a lot of further limitations even when fertility is not an issue.
“So, CduC obviously has potential, but probably comes along with the pitfalls of most tea rose types – color limitation, cold tenderness, the loathing of being pruned and mildew.”
Some of what you mention as pitfalls I consider to be positive traits in an Australian context. The soft colours, for instance are a trait of the group that I don’t mind preserving at all, however, Comtesse du Cayla has quite good saturation already. I’m getting very saturated crimsons from another line of China seedlings that may also prove useful in the future; it looks for all the world like Sanguine. Cold tenderness is neither here-nor-there for us here. Even where I live, winter rarely affects any rose of any type… It would up in the hills more but down here pretty much everywhere else it’s a non-issue. It’s the heat and the humidity that we need to worry about. Loathing of being pruned… definately plants after my own heart. I like my roses to be plant-and-forget. I believe 90% of busy people today would prefer the same. Mildew is an issue but I think with careful selection of parents can be dealt with. I would like to see the form of the flower improved.
My 10000 Camellia’s Red China Rose OP seedlings have not developed mildew… amazingly (to me) Rosa clinophylla has. I grew nearly 100 clinophylla seedlings and have discarded about 20 so far because they mildewed badly. Apparently there is lots of interspecific variation in this area so I’m discarding all clinophylla seedlings that show any mildew and keeping the ones that don’t. The clinophylla x bracteata seedlings show none. I have a lone seedling (so far) from Dr Bayse’s bracteata line (88-390) that so far looks good too. From my understanding its pedigree looks something like this (from notes sent to me by Don and verified by Viru):
I’ve sent this to Fred Boutin and Kim as well as well as we got into some discussions about Dr Bayses lines as well (which left my head spinning TBH).
Ideally I would not like to see solid yellow roses in this group. The tapestry of colour caused by the degrading/changing of the pigment is something that adds a lot to the overall effect in the landscape. Fortune’s Double Yellow, I believe, has a lot to offer in developing stronger yellows without losing the fading to red characteristic. I think if anyone is looking at using mutabilis this is the feature they want to preserve.
I think there will be limitations whichever path you follow. Lots to think about anyway…
Yeah, its not the phototropic characteristic that risks loss over generations. That trait seems to be carried well. But losing any yellow quite easy to do.
What about the use of ‘Plaisanterie’ the 1st gen ‘Trier’/‘Mutabilis’ musk/china cross? I’ve been very, very intrigued by this rose, and love it to death. So far here in Maryland it is rather healthy no-spray as well.
It could possibly wield all sorts of potential.
It is a little difficult to make sense of the chart but here is a go at it.
Basye
I made the chart from written accounts… it reads from right to left showing the various crosses made to result in 88-390… there is no issue in understanding it… sorry if that was ther impression.
It reads exactly like an HMF pedigree.
Simon said,
“I grew nearly 100 clinophylla seedlings and have discarded about 20 so far because they mildewed badly.”
The most vigorous of the clinophylla seedlings I grew out also mildewed to some degree. This is the reason I didn’t pursue it further at the time.
Paul’s hybrid of (0-47-19 x 0-47-19) X clinophylla is clean here so far.
Adam said,
“I just read the other day a nice article by Kim about using Commander Gillette as a parent in the summer of 2003 issue of the newsletter. It makes me wonder how it would do when crossed with something with L83 in its background.”
I don’t know about L83. I made a similar hybrid in 2007. It flowered for the first time this Spring. I’m about to send the majority of these seedlings to upstate NY for testing. Surprisingly they can mildew a bit. I’m going to stick some canes to see if they make decent rootstock.
Robert I like the cross you made. I was thinking that one could make crosses like this and get pretty good breeding stock especially if one were to take the time to do some short of back crossing to similar things.
Simon I think it is all the boxes that throw me off. It just took a while for me to figure it out.
What is really interesting about this parentage unless I am missing something. If you follow the female line back. It’s mitochondria and some other cell components should be of a completely independent line from almost every other modern rose. It would be a good rose to study the effects of these things in crosses versus other roses.
Comtesse du Cayla is a quite nice rose I grew ten years ago. Nice plant and nice colored flower.
Along this line I plan using Mme Laurette Messiny.
That saturated yellows are difficult to get from china’s/teas is a fact but it is not impossible. When playing triploid I got one from Arethusa which if not strong nor desease resistant enough had full HT flower and color saturation.
What ploidy is Arethusa? It looks about as “China” as Gruss an Aachen looks HT. It looks like it is China, Tea and either Noisette or Polyantha in a lesser quantity. Paul, the breeder, seemed to raise a lot of teas and noisettes when this rose was introduced. I am guessing its a mix of Tea, China and Noisette based on the architecture and the breeder. Arethusa is probably diploid, eh?
Yeah, these types of China/Tea/Noisettes looked great in Califronia when I would visit. California is probably the closest climate to France if comparing American climates. They sulk and degrade here even though the temperature is rarely the issue (except on freak years like last winter).
One of the few direct cross overs of tea x persian briar that have extreme saturation is Star of Persia. I am 100% sure the plant would be naked by June here. It was a pretty cool idea for its time though. The breeding of this rose makes me wonder how accurate the parentage for Tip Top is. The parentage is near-identical. I know some roses mated with R. foetida mostly produce white but I know Trier is capable. This fact combined with the general foliage, petal color blending pattern and architecture of Tip Top points to the idea that Tip Top’s male parent may have been an f1 or f2 of R. foetida bicolor. It seems likely that a Chinas and/or Polyanthas were involved.
Arethusa is probably diploid and looks like what is called a “noisette tea” a sub class of yellow teas. Fully fertile. However as for other “noisette teas” I know: i.e. Reve d’Or, the noisette influence is not obvious at all. Nil in my opinion.
Reve d’Or grows everywhere in century old more or less abandonned gardens, flowering any time, even in mild winters. As desease free as can be. Only Alberic Barbier is more prevalent, larger here and grows that old.
I grow a few direct foetida hybrids as well as the species form bicolor. Able to survive with some buildup in the same conditions they all perform much better than do most HT or Fl in a climate that favor blackspot.
I got seedlings this year from using Mutabilis pollen on Lynnie and 1-72-1. None of the 1-72-1 seedlings have bloomed yet, but the Lynnie ones have. (see below) I whole heartedly agree about combining Comtesse du Cayla with Mutabilis! I’m coddling my Comtesse to get her big enough to be bred upon. She was spectacular last year in the Sacramento Historic Cemetery! Seeing the size and how heavily she flowered, Mutabilis was my first thought to use with her.
An aside, I also obtained seedlings using Cineraire pollen on quite a few things. The more interesting (to me, at least!) were putting that pollen on Lynnie. Both crosses with Lynnie have resulted in highly disease resistant seedlings.