2022 Hybridization List - Todate

General Discussion
21

Well all crosses using x R. fedtschenkoana and x Polstjarnan as seed parents failed (except maybe John Cabot on Pols) - only one hip from R. fedsdtschenkoana reached the orange colored ripening stage - the one l did not try to pollinate :joy:.

l used every bloom R. fedtschenkoana except the one l left as a control … l assume pollination done by the competency nature as OP ?

Technique or incompatibility conjectures to resolve next year.

On the upside it appears R. fedtschenkoana as the pollen parent is not preventing hip generation on crosses l didn’t check every one.

22

… also did R. fedtshenckoana x Lykeefund as F x M cross - not in table. Failed.

23

Yeah, that result using R. fedtschenkoana as a seed parent seems about like what I’d expect–I had similar problems with R. (laxa?) ‘Ross Rambler’ (#1?), which is not too distantly related as things go. On top of that, any tetraploid (f) x diploid (m) cross is going to have even lower odds of producing viable seeds, in my experience. Pollen from R. fedtschenkoana should work better. Still, that’s a very long list of crosses. If you get even a fraction to set, you might have your work cut out for you!

Stefan

24

Hi Stefan txs for the feedback. As you can tell this season l went basically full-time at it because been itching to do it with the plantings (now can due to benefits of retirement).

Still have not ceased, but dropped off significantly as into whats left blooming that l think l should dab test with stored pollen.

Now pursuing potential crosses for tall hardy to semi hardy “landscapers” (now that on tertiary level seed parent targets a.k.a. still blooming) … e.g. mainly Winnipeg Parks, Chinook Sunrise, Jonh Franklin “ the maybe “, John Cabot and Canadian Shield.

Trying for red-red-yellow blends so they are getting pollinated frequently and robustly with variety of pollens from moderns, heritage and species.

All in the context of a “regional garden” reconn survey of crossing potential, as a default to doing a comprehensive researching of backgrounds genetics and narrowing margins … easier and faster to just do it and see. And document, document and document.

And not forgetting it is “fun” after 25 years of growing them.

25

Harvesting of 2022’s field crossing, and 2 O.P.s completed today. No poloidy, prework done for variety crossing selections.

Guide used was qualitative knowledge (garden performance experience) to guess parents selections that could produce full hardy, or trying to amp up hardiness of a cross to in between a full hardy parent, and a tender parent. At the same time retaining aesthetic attributes of the better looking, but tender,parent.

Unadulterated “Hard Stats” Results:

  • Total Crossings = 128 / 100%


  • Crossings producing harvested seed = 64 / 50%


  • Failed Crossings = 64 / 50% (no hip formation or no seed)

Total Seeds = 1500 +/- 20%

  • % Garden stock varieties tested (55-65%)

Germination Results ? TBD by April 2023

It was a great knowledge gaining exercise, and fun. I now have a better handle on my roses’ potential. Just need a measure of the germination potential of the crosses.

Positive and other types of leanings obtained for technique improvement.

26

This is the vetted version

2022 Crossing Survey Crosses - Field Season to September 16 2022

Hips and Seeds Combo - y or n

1 (RDxS) x Basye Purple y
2 (RDxS) x Helenae hybrida y
3 (RDxS) x Hunter y
4 (RDxS) x Lykkefund n
5 6910 x (RDxS) n
6 6910 x Alika Y
7 6910 x R. fedtschenkoana y
8 6910 x RR#1 y
9 Auli x 6910 y
10 Auli x OP y
11 Auli x R. fedtschenkoana y
12 Austrian Copper x Suzanne y
13 Basyes Purple x R. fedtschenkoana n
14 Bayse Purple x Hunter n
15 Bill Reid x Helenae hybrida y
16 Bill Reid x Lykeefund y
17 Bill Reid x Merveille n
18 Butterball x (Austrian Copper+Nelly Kelly) y
19 Butterball x Nelly Kelly y
20 Butterball x Williams double Yellow y
21 Canadian Shield x (R. fedts+Lykeefund+Helenae h) n
22 Canadian Shield x L83 n
23 Canadian Shield x Merveille n
24 Canadian Shield x R. fedtschenkoana n
25 Canadian Shield x Tove Janseen n
26 Carefree Beauty x (Olds College+Bill Reid) y
27 Carefree Beauty x Bill Reid n
28 Carefree Beauty x Chinook Sunrise y
29 Carefree Beauty x Merveille y
30 Carefree Beauty x Northern Yellow n
31 Carefree Beauty x Olds College y
32 Carefree Beauty x R. fedtschenkoana y
33 Chinook Sunrise x Merveille n
34 Chinook Sunrise x Northern Yellow y
35 Chinook Sunrise x Prairie Peace n
36 Dr Merkeley x Merveille n
37 Ernst Dorelle x 6910 n
38 Ernst Dorelle x R. fedtschenkoana n
39 Francofurtana x Lillian Gibson y
40 Francofurtana x Lykkefund y
41 Francofurtana x Prairie Peace n
42 Francofurtana x Ristimunni n
43 Helena hybrida x Isabelle Skinner y
44 Helena hybrida x R. fedtschenkoana n
45 Helena hybrida x RDxS y
46 Helenae hybrida x (RR #1+Bill Reid) n
47 Helenae hybrida x Bill Reid y
48 Helenae hybrida x L83 y
49 Helenae hybrida x Olds College n
50 Hunter x (RDxS) y
51 Hunter x Basye Purple y
52 John Cabot x 6910 n
53 John Cabot x Basye Purple n
54 John Cabot x Lykkefund n
55 John Cabot x Merveille n
56 John Cabot x Ormiston Roy n
57 John Cabot x R. Xanthina n
58 John Franklin x (Lykee Fund+Helenae hybrida) n
59 John Franklin x Merveille n
60 John Franklin x Polstjarnan n
61 John Franklin x R. xanthina n
62 John Franklin x Ristimunni n
63 L83 x 6910 y
64 L83 x Agatha y
65 L83 X Ames Climber y
66 L83 x Empress Josephine y
67 L83 x Helenae Hybrid y
68 L83 x Merveille y
69 Lillian Gibson x R. fedtschenkoana n
70 Lillian Gibson x 6910 y
71 Lillian x RDxS n
72 Lillian x RR #1 y
73 Lykkefund x Bill Reid n
74 Lykkefund x John Cabot y
75 Lykkefund x L83 Y
76 Lykkefund x Olds College n
77 Lykkefund x R. fedtschenkoana n
78 Lykkefund x RDxS y
79 Lykkefund x RR #1 n
80 Merveille x Bill Reid Y
81 Merveille x John Cabot y
82 Merveille x Olds College n
83 Merveille x Polstjarnan Y
84 Merveille x Porsliini Kaunota y
85 Merveille x R. blanda “Herttoniemi” Y
86 Merveille x R. fedtschenkoana y
87 Merveille x RdxS y
88 Merveille x RR#1 y
89 Merveille x Suzanne y
90 Morden Centennial x Francofurtana n
91 Northern Yellow x Merveille n
92 Olds College x Helenae hybrida y
93 Olds College x Lykkefund y
94 Olkkala x Olds College y
95 Polsjarnan x Lykeefund n
96 Polstjarna x Winnipeg Parks n
97 Polstjarnan x Butterball n
98 Polstjarnan x John Cabot n
99 Polstjarnan x Merveille n
100 Prairie Dawn x 6910 n
101 Prairie Joy x Merveille n
102 Prairie Peace x Nutkana n
103 R. blanda “Herttoniemi” O.P. y
104 R. carolina x (RDxS) y
105 R. carolina x Lykkefund y
106 R. fedtschenkoana O.P. y
107 R. fedtschenkoana x (Lykkefund+ Helenae hybrida) n
108 R. fedtschenkoana x Auli n
109 R. fedtschenkoana x Carefree Beauty n
110 R. fedtschenkoana x Ormiston Roy n
111 R. fedtshenckoana x Bayse Purple n
112 R. nutkana x Prairie Peace y
113 R. xanthina normalis x Tove Janssen y
114 Ristimunni x Francofurtana n
115 RR#1 x Nelly Kelly n
116 Schoeners Nutkana x Prairie Peace+Hazeldean y
117 Suzanne x Austrian Copper y
118 White Altaica x Auli n
119 White Altaica x Nelly Kelly n
120 White Altaica x Northern Yellow y
121 Winnipeg Parks x (Lykkefund+Helenae hybrida) n
122 Winnipeg Parks x Basye Purple y
123 Winnipeg Parks x L83 n
124 Winnipeg Parks x Northern Yellow n
125 Winnipeg Parks x Polstjarnan y
126 Winnipeg Parks x R. blanda “Herttoniemi” n
127 Winnipeg Parks x R. fedtschenkoana n
128 Winnipeg Parks x Tove Jansson y

27

Thanks for sharing , Rick. This is a valuable list.

28

Txs Margit,

I am pleased, and appreciate you see value in my sharing, and good to have positive implicit feed back that it is not a single user app (me) data log of a amateur’s efforts.

Now time to wax “scientific obvious” - skipping it as a read, is a democratic right.

I recognize what I documented is true for my results (seed formed), but does not predict that they can be replicated by others (e.g. RDxS crosses) as successes, or as failures (should not stop trying at least once). And that the only thing that remains is does the seed from the cross “germinate” to be able to consider it a starting success.

The list is a clip out of a section of an Excel workbook “data log/observations/results diary” I started for my 2022 hybridizing season. It will be continued through to “seedling stage”. I will probably add to it for each season, and use it as screening and data record tool, and future foundation for planning on an annual basis for the next season.

The wild bronco, rose rough rider cowboy era is ending, and now back to technical project development, planning, sort of science discipline testing and documentation - got decades of practise in those areas … and all that dusted off because of one success in “life at just below zero” testing … that finished the hybridizing-worth-it equation proof.

One tedious task this winter is to add “post facto” the poliody of the parents - to see if there really is any relationships I believe in, and therefore worth using as a guide tool - though I shower favour on random tests as necessary. This is needed as some of crosses resulting in seed, and in fails threw me for loops such a one variety total fail on all crosses. Therefore clues are demanded as to root cause why? (poliody? pollinating contamination / errors? doc errors? … impatience ? … naha on last one).

29

Now that l started filling in the missing science l have made an effort to remember how to spell “ploidy” … never stop learning ….

Presently tapped out HMF ploidy listings.

Anybody suggest other sources of listed rosa “ploidy”?

I know the rose compendium series l have a copy does have the odd one.

Wondering about others?

Major parents for my season tries are not available in HMF - though HMF is an excellent go to resource (e.g. lykkefund, helenae hybrida, all the Finns, a lot of CDNS, m6910, etc).

30

You might try sorting through topics posted under the ‘Ploidy Level’ subcategory of the new forum software.

https://forum.rosehybridizers.org/ , under the Genetics heading.

Also, clicking the ‘ploidy-level’ tag in any topic that offers it will turn up related topics, some of which may not be listed in the Ploidy subcategory.

Anybody suggest other sources of listed rosa “ploidy”?

31

Might as well use this reply as a test for me

Txs Don for suggestion. I will give it a test drive. Prior to change over in the forum, I found a comprehensive compiled species ploidy public domain list done by some University of Guelph workers.

32

Moving to stratification started early in Oct 2.

Prior to, economical hobby size plastic bags 2”and 4” wide of harvested seeds (1500 seeds +5% -25%) opened for ~2weeks to air drying) and occasionally shaken - reason? No science, just want them surface dried and separated for stratifying .

Pearlite added, to bags, and shaken to ensure separation ( no science for pearlite reason - prefer pearlite for visual acuity).

Hard water added (whats available) with turkey baster until visible. Shaken again. - any visible liquid water drained.

Seeds soaked for a couple or three days in damp bag at 66-72F.

Placed at just below 0C, and better than winter Arctic humidity levels (l think winter Arctic around 0.1 -03%).

Due to cold air sinks, bin shelving approach, and monetary preferences, two economical (read cheap) thermometers used in mini freezer/fridge as opposed to thermocouples.

Usually checked every week or so and more water added if perlite - seed bag appears desiccated. Use 1.0 ml syringe.

Plan for 5-6 months of dormancy at the slightly below zero for seeds. Then phase two to come … or where rubber meets the road. Need to balance transfer to germinating station with using station for germinating sweet peas indoors for May plant - first call on grow lights.

The crosses should be mostly hardy in my zone so grow season length not an issue with sweet pea priority - germination is the achilles heel to my program.

Seed bags closely packed upright for space in odds n sods bins. Don’t need to worry about germination in bag as transfer seeds to top of organic soul and cover with pearlite.

Using this stratification method for hardy seed parent(s) (1 at least) for zone-4 Cdn allowed breaking through a road block that was fouling me.

Expect at least 5-10% germination depending which of 64 crosses. Better comes with tweaking DTR.

image

33

What a stroke of making blind luck out of a smarting negative.

I found yesterday during an Alika vs Francofurtana comparison, my “tetraploid R. laxa “ l had collected last spring had bloomed (still to be confirmed next year via suggested petal count). Never expected that so early after collection for a once bloomer even if only 4 blooms.

My diploid R. laxa did not.

The tetra produced nice sized red “bottle” hips and seed. Missing its bloom pushed back program by 1 year by missing 1st step in one controlled crossing path to goal. Path reportedly used by Skinner and other prairie hybridizers.

No matter, into fridge they go to see what an o.p. Laxa (tetra) brings. Hope enough roses around (they are due to close planting) to increase odds a natural cross occurred.

34

It’s really interesting that your tetraploid R. laxa flowered so early–the tetraploid form was one of the better germinators for me back in MN under simple outdoor treatment, although the growing conditions were/are poor enough that the plants didn’t flower for many years and might still not have begun flowering. You’d probably need some good barriers (hardware cloth) if you have significant rodent pressure, but it might be a workable alternative if you happen to get a low percentage with the freezer method and want to increase it.

Getting a fuller understanding of R. laxa (both in terms of ploidy and morphology) would benefit breeders, but would probably require significant field work and molecular studies spanning multiple countries, and it’s hard to say if or when that will happen. I see that some recent effort has been put into studying and describing the variation found in western China, which somewhat mirrors what we see in cultivation: Karyotype Analysis of Wild Rosa Species in Xinjiang, Northwestern China in: Journal of the American Society for Horticultural Science Volume 139 Issue 1 (2014)

Did you glean any more from examining your ‘Alika’ (‘Splendens’?) and R. x francofurtana?

Stefan

35

Hi Stefan

Txs for the laxa comments and experience relay. They are all input valuable feedback.

Quite pleased with this tetra’s (TBD) performance even before belated discovery of hips. Largest / longest cane 2 feet by October. Hips were ripe because hit the “wrinkly mushy stage” but retained their color and shape. 20 seeds with 75% looking “full” - went hust below zero today.

Also gifted this year from a CDN hardy rose breeder, a R beggeriana nigrenscs (blackening) whose commercial origin is Loubert. l got three plants out of the runners. Also gifted a MF / poly accredited to J Dermirts ? (sic) aptly named “The Gift”. Apparently easy come back from CDN zone 3 winter with bloom. And Aciccularis sayi ( many debates) and R laxa Retz with latter’s origins being MBG. Point being imo, l am now with the gardens’ stock varieties in a ”no excuses” position to produce my goal(s). Whats left is dive back into 50 year old forgotten learnings on meiosis, mitosis and remember how the heck can the starting basis be 2x=2n unless x=n and get weirder as 2 changes on both sides as ploidy goes up and mixed, and odd numbers occur. How does one avoid fractions if x and n integers?

Rodents have been spared now that crossings harvested. Rabbit fence still a must and in year 4. Though continue to protect clematis and aquila as rodents target them with vengeance.

Txs again for input.

36

Also forgot gift of R carolina alba

37

And txs for the paper, its definitely different from one l am aware of and bang on topic/my interest. Other one’s abstract (also from China workers ) was a great starter. Had me spinning on Laxa poidy as l read from other sources the “hybrids” canbe dip, tetra and pentaloid - promises to informative and out comes the yellow highlighter. Need to see if beggeriana same story - with claims laxa from it and cinn?

38

Darn forgot ur other question.

The comparative stock search began when l notice a bright single red rose bush blooming prodigiously in back yard for the first time - not suppose to be there from sketchy memory. Based on age, hip form and canes length it was not a seedling from my 3 year old francofurtana. I had not seen it bloom before - at front of backyard centre pod.

Compared it to my splendens and alika. It was closer to them - lead came from Albertan rosarian of note. None of these two in backyard or so l thought. Two plausible answers bird/ rodent or l found one of my two missing Alikas and forgot l planted it in backyard. Now have 3 that l know were they are.

39

Hi Stefan,

Many interesting areas discussed and on all surface appearances, good collecting testing and science - mind you significance of karyotype beyond me at present.

But the one area that really caught my eye for personal reasons, besides wishing what appears to be true new laxa var. tomurensis, due to karyotype (also bigger flower and bud) to land in North America, is the discussion on beggeriana and hip color.

Only “named” beggeriana l am aware of have hips that seem to pass through a red phase until final black phase. Yet flipping the author’s’ emphasis it appears there is an eluded to an observation the ending as red hip is the “most” common.

Point was they view the final black/dark hip beggeriana type not to be enough to justify it being a distinct variety - “karyotypes differ little.”

From other sources , the R. beggeriana sepals fall off with hip maturity, were as laxa’s are retained, seems to be a key “distinguisher” with laxa ( ref authors photos of examples).

Practical uses? Interesting to see what happens on my R beggeriana nigrensc black hips that pass through the red phase.

So far only photo l ‘ve seen (1) shows sepals on black hip.

If retained - be an interesting conudrum to chase … is it really a neat pink laxa?

40

I’ve also wondered about that R. beggeriana “nigrescens” before, and it would be really good to know how that plant’s characteristics fit in with the accepted circumscriptions of species like R. beggeriana, R. laxa, and others (although maybe it could have hybrid origins). It also might not be the plant that was originally described with that name, of course, but hopefully it is. Breeding with it might also be a small adventure if you have thoughts in that direction. You might not have any way to shed much light on its ploidy without testing it in both directions with other parents of known ploidy, or finding someone with equipment and time to do an actual count. Typical R. beggeriana is, I think, supposed to be diploid, but all bets may be off when it comes to whatever this “nigrescens” thing is. Luckily, mixing ploidies in breeding isn’t necessarily a problem, and a cross that seems worth making in spite of a ploidy difference is at least worth a good attempt. In fact, mixed ploidies might be better in some wide crosses than diploid x diploid crosses, which can succeed but might be likely to give infertile offspring (consider ‘Polstjarnan’, for example).

Maybe ‘The Gift’ seems to succeed better in the far north than R. multiflora because it can rebloom, so tenderness isn’t such a deal breaker. It otherwise seems to be pretty close to the species, which is fairly cold-hardy for an Asian Synstylae. ‘Darlow’s Enigma’ worked in MN on similar principles, dying back pretty hard but bouncing back and flowering respectably if not too shaded. Both would be similarly useful, I would think (though there are big differences!), although I didn’t try ‘The Gift’ in MN and can’t speak to a direct hardiness comparison. I will say that ‘Darlow’s Enigma’ has been a survivor there.