2007 Hulthemia Seedlings

Roses for Hybridizing Blotch (Hulthemia)
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41

Hi folks,

the genetical incompatibility is the main problem in getting anything helpful for the future, as F1, besides Tigris, I think.

Of course it is a bit like a fanatic idea, to get a better Hybrid than Tigris is, as a starting position for breeding.

But why not, Harkness tried a lot of plants as a pollen parent (lots of the moschatas), but not everyone, and not a lot of the existing Rose species or wild-near-hybrids, so thats what I’d like to do.

And - of course - I try to use informations, that wheren’t available at that time in the 1970s … .

Perhaps the compatibility is better, if the genomes of the parents aren’t mixed up too much.

And, if the pollen parents genomes / chromosomes are nearly that big as in Hulthemia and perhaps not too far away, phylogenetically.

I don’t have much infos on this topics so far, but a few - and I try to sort of “weighing” it, when I decide, which pollen should be used for crossing.

Lets see, if it fits.

The main point is: I don’t look necessarily for repeat blooming plants as a F1, so my horizon is fixed by the idea of getting as fertile and health plants, as ever possible.

So, I wouldn’t cross Rosa persica with Cornelia or Trier in the first step, well maybe in a third step, when the genomes are more stable in F2 generations or further.

If there would be a good fertile F1 Hybrid, I could get easily old on crossing just with this one. :smiley:

The stellata breedings are really nearly the same, but I think its easier to breed with stellata, Louis lens did it, and in Sangerhausen they have some of his stellata seedlings, crossings with rugosa and multibracteata, also with [nutkana x bracteata] … the most is infertile, as it seems, perhaps the multibracteata crossing has fertile pollen, - well at least it has pollen!

Oh yes, I like stellata, too, but thats another “film”. :wink:

Rosa persica seems to be harder to cross, thats why I tried to get as much infos as possible before getting pollen on the first flower.

Greetings,

Arno

42

The point is the incompatibility.

So I try it with a perhaps “calmer” genetically background for the F1 generation by using wild near or wild roses, Harkness didn’t use.

Greetings,

Arno

43

Arno, I love your photos of Hulthemia persica! Very nice, and with good representation of the differences from Rosa.

All of the photos that I shared above are 4th and 5th generation from the the species. The generations were similar to as follows:

  1. Hulthemia persica.

  2. ‘Tigris’.

  3. “Tiggle” and ‘Persian Sunset’ (long blooming periods but not fully remontant, not blooming on new wood).

  4. “G34” and “I89-2” (fully remontant, blooming on new wood).

  5. The above yellow mini, and the parents of the seedlings noted below.

  6. The first and second hybrids in this post.

Going back to the species would be very intriguing, and definitely challenging! I would love to grow some actual Hulthemia persica plants from seeds. Perhaps I can get some of my Iranian friends to bring me some seeds (though they probably wouldn’t want to risk it)??!

I have a similar interest as what you seem to be interested in - to preserve as many of the desirable original H. persica genes in the rose hybrids. Going back to the species would be the best strategy to preserve the most genes, but would also be the most difficult. I have tried to approach the problem differently. So far, I have 3 lines from ‘Tigris’ (“G34”, “I89-2” and another one not listed coming from “H65-2”) that I am using with the attempt being to keep infusing all of these lines into my repeat blooming hulthemias, thereby retaining as many of the H. persica genes as possible.

Do you have access to Mr. Ralph Moore’s ‘Persian Sunset’? I wonder if using existing H. persica hybrids as pollen parents would increase fertility when crossed back to the species?

Jim Sproul

44

Hi Jim!

Thank you for your comment on the pictures.

First: I am respectfully looking at the fruits of your work, I must say. …

The first picture in this thread gives view to an extremely nice rose and I hope you are getting further success in this direction.

To my sources: No, I have no access to Ralph Moore’s Roses, but I want to visit california if possible.

The problem is: how to get it to Europe!

Complicated! - Even breeding is easier! :smiley:

But I’ve got some ideas for it. …

But, - the problem of these roses could be, that here in middle Europe, they aren’t hardy enough.

And: I don’t use anti-fungi chemicals (only for persica, sometimes against powdery mildew and for my Fragrance cloud against black spot).

The rest of my roses will not survive, if they aren’t healthy enough, thats my setting.

To your overview: Thank you very much for your little breeding-overview, because thats exactly the thing i needed to understand where you are just going along … .

I myself breed for

  1. disease resistancy

  2. yellow and yellow containing colors

  3. winter hardy plants

Sometimes huge, sometimes small … .

E.g., for the smaller ones, i have got an idea: do you know the nice Rosa farreri / elegantula persetosa?

This one, crossed with the old Minis from Dot should give great combinations!

I love it, since I saw it this year at Sangerhausen.

I crossed it with Rosa multiflora ‘adenochaeta’ in may this year, - lets see.

But, crossed with ‘Pompon de Paris’ it would be also really great, i think … .

Well - I even don’t have a greenhouse, but a garden and terasse (do you say terasse?) but my limited capacity is ok.

The other thing is: every seedling that gets through the winters here, on its own, and planted in isolated pots outside, is surely worth to live on in this conditions … so maybe as an accepted garden rose, some day!

And some of the weaker seedlings I put in a cool and bright room in winter.

Thats my setting. I do crossings since 2002. (In the cellar I’ve got a 1600 Watt’s Light setting for winter crossings in a small room that I used two times, and I am thinking of using it this winter again. You get one year more to cross this way!)

So far I have got seedlings from different Garden roses but also from different species crossings.

During that time I tried to grow up the Rosa persicas and now its time for them to flower. (I counted them today, not 18 plants, 21 plants came through- and are left -, so far, but three still are very small.)

I hope that my pollen partners were well chosen - the persica hip is slightly thickening, as I saw today evening!

Only one bulb, lets see. I’ve got Gibberellic Acid, but use it only at 14th day after pollination. (Read it somewhere, that often propagated 10th day decreases number of seeds.)

I also crossed with many really healthy wild roses and near wild rose hybrids, this year, so - if Rosa persica won’t make me feel lucky, perhaps ist another combination.

I like huge climbers & ramblers as well and in a garden 30 km away from where I live, I will grow some of my seedlings from the beginning of the next gardening season.

So, this year I also crossed 20 buds of Treasure Trove x Climbing Peace and Treasure Trove x some strong odour-roses.

Help, that needs space!

But Rosa persica is the Queen and so far she does not need much space. One pot is arranged together with the four others and still empty. … :wink:

Greetings from Germany,

Arno

45

Well done, Jim! These are fantastic!

46

It would be theoretically possible to get repeat blooming, diploid, strong yellow w/red eyed polyanthas with this species, no? It’d be a pain the *** but possible it would seem.

47

Hi Jadae!

The idea is probably good, although i think the Polyanthas are genetically far away from Hulthemia.

But then one should take such plants as pollen parents, which are of good health, because you will never get that out of your “Fx” plants in lifetime, if something in the beginning isn’t healthy enough.

If one sees the Harkness Hybrids, its obvious, that they never are such vigorious plants as the pollen parents.

And diseases are also a problem for some Hybrids, because:

If the genetical background for such a Hybrid is a battlefield of subgeni of Rosa itself, its probably easier for the funghi to cope with the defense mechanisms of such a “franken-plant”, which is its highest hurdle in life for itself.

Perhaps its a way to cross strong and pretty healthy chinensis descendents. Or bigger moschata-filipes hybrids.

The outcome might be much smaller, as a normal garden plant perhaps.

But there is another problem for such an idea:

the best unfading yellow colors you won’t get by crossing synstylae dominated roses in the first step, i think.

The outcome could be both: nice and disappointing. :wink:

Greetings from Germany,

Arno

48

Ironically available from America only, lol. One could also try the diploid and triploid fertile landscape hybrids descended from Rosa wichurana.

49

Also an idea.

Luciae & wichurana descendands are often healthy, - but not always.

I’ll take others for the first steps, but let me trie it, i’ll post any effort. :wink:

50

lol you can try whatever you wish. I just enjoy coming up with ideas, lol :slight_smile:

51

Arno, thanks for a review of your goals. I am sorry that you do not have easy access to Mr. Moore’s hulthemias.

I think that disease problems can be overcome. I think that the yellow color might be a problem. As you noted with your seedlings, the Persica blooms do not last long. I have a bright yellow seedling of Persian Sunset that lacks the blotch, but has the persica coloring and prickles. The blooms are very transient and fade quickly. Breeding for the Persica yellow will no doubt bring those problems. I think that the yellow may have to be pulled from somewhere else.

I will be out of town for a few days, so may not have access to computer. Best wishes.

Jim Sproul

52

Bummer about the iffy yellow trait :frowning: Maybe that is why Harkness used Canary Bird as part of his hultemia trial parents.

53

Hi Jim!

You are probably right with the yellow!

Thats why I am crossing different “themes” at the moment.

This year is my best so far, i checked my “testcrossings” for the single Persica crossing this evening - and all did set hips, instead of one back-crossing.

I did four crossings and their four backcrossings.

In these cases I testet the pollen parents with extremely hard to cross motherplants (as Persica substitutes with some similar aspects, that seemed important to me in terms of fertility) & vice versa.

So perhaps I might now have an indicator, if the pollen parents are able to work in such “irregular” and extremely “abnormal” constellations, if I use my “key-settings”.

  • So far, so far - they did!

Now its on Persica to say, what she wants! :wink:

Greetings from Germany,

Arno

54

As you can tell this is Persian Sunset. It was a new plant this Spring about 6 inches tall and now it is in its third flush. It had about 5 flowers in the frist flush, about 12 in its second flush and so far has about 36 buds, all on new wood of course because it did not have old wood. It is growing just fine for me but I suppose the Mills Magic Mix and slow release fert. didn’t hurt any.

55

I only got one flush of Persian Sunset blossoms in my climate but it is growing vigorously. Kim’s I89-2 is repeating well.

56

Patrick, it looks like you have a very nice and vigorous ‘Persian Sunset’. Though I have gotten several flushes of blooms on it, I haven’t seen any new side growth coming off of new wood that produces blooms in the same season. For me, growth that produces blooms has always eminated from last years wood, though it comes in different flushes. You might check to see if the new flushes are coming as side buds off of new growth, or if they are coming from the original six inches of growth on the original plant that you had at the beginning of the season.

Some of the nonremontent seedlings from ‘Persian Sunset’ behave the same way. Though they didn’t bloom during the first year, they exhibited several flushes of blooms during the second or third season. This is very different from the truly repeat, or continuous blooming characteristic, seen on hulthemia seedlings that bloom in 8 weeks from germination, like other modern roses.

Jim Sproul

57

Thanks Jim for those comments which made me go back out and look at it again. The branch in the picture surely is old wood because it is a basel break from way down below. The other two are side shoots which looks like they came from the very end of the 6 inches of old wood, so you are correct in what you said. I can’t wait until I get some seedlings from it.

Patrick

58

The seedling that I started this thread with at the top (code name K201) is finishing its third bloom cycle (it is almost continuous in its blooming). As expected, the blotch has lightened in the heat (we have had up to 106 F. already), but I am pleased that it has remained as dark as it is. Some of my hulthemias (G34 for example) currently have no indication of a blotch due to the fading in the warmer weather.

Here is a photo of K201 that I took yesterday.



A photo of G34 taken during the winter months can be seen at the link below. BTW, G34 is a grandparent of K201.

Jim Sproul

Link: sproulrosesbydesign.com/E5-9TG.htm

59

Nice Jim, and encouraging!

I’m finding the Hulthemias exhibit excellent fertility as pollen parents so far. I can’t wait to start evaluating my fist batch of offspring.

Of course it’s unlikely I will see any blotching in my first generation.

I’ll have to select for vigor, repeat and single blossom form.

60

Hi Jim!

Again I have to refer to your posting, you wrote:

“Do you have access to Mr. Ralph Moore’s ‘Persian Sunset’? I wonder if using existing H. persica hybrids as pollen parents would increase fertility when crossed back to the species?”

Today I read some texts abut allo- and autopolyploidy.

After that I thought it might be a good idea to do backcrossings with tigris pollen on Rosa persica and then doubling chromosomes of seedlings in a second step.

The problem: one will be so glad to get at least one seedling, that its brutal to lose it in a cholchicine bath!

I already tried that chromosome doublings with species seedlings of Rosa persica in 2005 and 2006 but so far I don’t know if it was successful.

Some of the seedlings survived, but these ones don’t behave in another way than these ones which were grown up normally, instead of that one, that flowered last year.

It is bigger and grew faster.

But as I read now, one would not expect that behaviour.

It should grow slower.

And what I didn’t know is, that the fertility of that estimated autotetraploids would be less compared to allotetraploid plants (doubled hybrids).

OK it this sounds logically well thought - although I didn’t think about it, when I did the colchicine experiments.

So - lots of words and short meaning:

Crossings / backcrossings on Rosa persica should be the first step, before doubling cromosomes of the species plants (with opening the pandoras box of all the recessive alleles anyway).

Otherwise it needs a “killing pollen” partner to get at least lots of seedlings for statistically good quotes in a colchicine treatment after germination.

What would you think?

Greetings,

Arno