1st Green of 2024 - Two Step conditioning Before Ambient

[RikuHelin]

First green of year, white beggeriana this morning. Earliest one yet. Seeds went to ambient 2 days ago. Donated by Margit.

Based on offspring and “Rosa beggeriana nigrescens” performance in my garden likely to be an extremely hardy species rose - got love those real hardy roses and crosses.

Germinated by testing two sequential conditioning step temperatures and time ( no cycling yet). First 4 months of just below “0”C, then 30 days of 2-4C followed by warm stratification (ambient).

Next seeds awaiting, have four steps which includes ~ 30 days at ambient temperature with moisture followed by above three steps.

Had to reduce time and put just below 0C as fungus became issue from first step at ambient and moist.

“Rosa beggeriana nigrescens” runner sample donation from Ami, from Quebec.

[James_D]

Congratulations I hope many more emerge soon

[VanIsleDWSmith]

Holy Smokes, fellow canucklehead! That’s fantastic. I’m on Vancouver Island and haven’t begun to think about germinating seeds yet! Lmao

[MidAtlas]

Warm stratification can definitely be a problem when it comes to fungus, depending on the medium–I’m glad to read that you’ve succeeded after going straight into freezing temperatures! I am actually just putting my first seeds into stratification tonight, after soaking them for half a day in water. I’m a bit worried that I will regret starting the process so early because of space limitations under lights, but had a little free time due to a rainy weekend day and decided to take a chance. Hopefully they won’t start sprouting until at least two months have passed, or even better, three…

Stefan

[RikuHelin]

Hi Stefan,

Day 2 of ambient germination and a 700% increase from yesterday to 8 … found a species “germinator” … unfortunately a very long time before can cross

… so back to recrossing polstjarnan this summer in the meantime. Anybody know ploidy of polstjarnan??? not in HMF that l see.

Will assume diploid as with R beggeriana (schenk) - from HMF

[MidAtlas]

That’s really impressive; you’ve clearly cracked the code for that species (and maybe others). It’s really too bad that there aren’t more ready sources for “fringe” hardy species in Canada or the U.S.!

‘Polstjarnan’ is almost certainly diploid–I remember reading somewhere that its other parent might have been ‘Gruss an Zabern’, and I grew that rambler for a while (it was wonderful and more waftingly fragrant than most roses I know, but I lost it to RRD before I could get it propagated). In my experience ‘Polstjarnan’ is almost as sterile as a mule. Then again David, did get some seedlings using polyantha pollen, if memory serves, posted here somewhere for those who are curious. It’s worth continued work, but will definitely need some perseverance if you want to get anywhere with it.

Stefan

[RikuHelin]

Thanks Stefan,

Another one this morning,

Will plan on crossing Polstjarnan both ways. Also waiting to see if R. beggeriana nigrescens (sic) does a small first bloom and if it does,will jump on it,to try and get color transfer.

Time to start planning next year’s trials with existing roses.

Step 2 continue hunting to fill more of ploidy data on garden examples - done doing random pairing selections except for odd lark or two.

One avenue l will pursue is going back to finding more mates for R. fedtschenkoana as it did so well crossing with the purple gallica. No good so far as a seed parent.

Seem to give that “pliable twiggy” cane structure l’ve seen on some “climbers / ramblers”. Also some germinations produce upright “stiff”. Early days but l tend to go with impressions until more in the garden growing proof.

Seems tetra with tetra worked well. Fed is hardy in my zone whereas my other success mate, Cabot, is semi-hardy (another successful pollen parent).

And next to paramount, continue with R. xanthina crosses with related spinosissima, and target for double and color palette. Again hardy seed parent and based on species experience with its seedlings, maybe a 1:10 chance of “super seedling" (for growth).

Looking for repeat on crossings, way down the road. Liking once bloomers though RDxS very reliable repeater for me - excluding rugosas.

Riku

UPDATE Jan 6

To belabour the point, In 3 days (+/- 1 day) this hardy species has germinated to green, 11 seedlings as of this morning, at the third temperature (T3) value of 18-20C.

This 3 day performance is after temperature conditioning stages of 4 months (T1) at -2 to 0 C, 30 days (T2) of 2 to 4 C, then followed by house ambient T3, of 18 to 20C.

Best absolute germination value for my tries for ~ same number of seeds (+/- 15%) in shortest ambient exposure time (3 days). Disciplined normalization not done because green initiation duration was so short from start of T3 exposure (3 days).

As another yard stick comparison, crosses in same conditioning run have “0”, or aka no germinations to green showing.

Fortunately l took a picture of a seed that attracted my attention at the end of T2 during transfer to T3 trays.

Only one l noted to have what appeared to be a true root starter. Familiar with fake looking starts. They are small seeds showing me size doesn’t matter in germination.

Ooops !!! 12th by 12 noon MST. Even dozen for first time.

Update Jan 10 /23

New, “MY world germination record” shattering records set earlier this week and last few years,

18 germinations of R beggeriana

Fortunately yesterday began upping my germination game in “holding capacity” area.

Began increasing nursery capacity through Costco supplied low capital hardware infrastructure additions- work in progress.

Will demo old HD support sketchy rig and remove 120 gallon unused aquarium to get real estate at nursery.

[Roseus]

Congratulations! A very exciting time begins.

[RikuHelin]

Hit 19 by 4pm MST today

… going to minus 30 to 35 C at night here so indoor capacity upgrade work and terrific germination welcomed.

Mind you germination quantity starting to enter the bizarre realm for my germination paradigm

[philip_la]

Riku, if you need to make a little more room by getting rid of some of your wine, I’m here for you. (Might help me deal with all of my failures so far this year. LOL)
Very impressive results. Congrats, and keep us posted!
Any pictures of fedtshenkoana babies? (ls there any potential for rebloom on the F2 of the gallica babies from fedt.?)

[RikuHelin]

Hi Phil,

Had a nice older Argentina Malbec last night … to celebrate hitting an all time personal best of 19 (think finally stopped today - germinations that is) … once l dealt with the floating old cork (not even old) which shredded and plugged bottle as l forgot to use the prongs.

I”ll put specific cross of fedtschenkoniana photos (pollen parent ~ 3 or 4 examples varying height and prickle density and leaf texture) on this thread. John Cabot as pollen parent will be also shown.

Be cautioned they are in a very sad state for being leafed out compared to when l brought them in for winter from outdoors. l remain positive they will make it to May - not coming in for winter this September.

Have to survive winter now like 8 month old xanthina seedlings did, to be worth keeping in my garden.

First photo are Merv x Fed…
Second (taller) are Merv x John Cabot. ln pan left 3 Fed. right 5 John Cabot.

Last pan has a Centre rose whose original tag lost tag shows with ? and my guess a John Cabot pollen parent.

It was powdery mildew and mites causing problem … another slice of cranium claims it’s a need for them to go dormant.

Update Jan 12

2 more last night while -35c outside.

Like the pink bunny … keeps going, going, going, that is 21.

Going have to get permission (low probability), do a road trip if received, to the sacred bush, pollinate it, and x-tag it to seasons holiday tree status.

[RikuHelin]

Apologies forgot your second F2 question - but a short answer, “don’t know” for the feds … both parents once bloomers. Early days … they have to make through a winter for my self imposed guidelines.

l think, didn’t check that Fed apparently has that “ Rok … something or other repeating “gene chunk” buried in its code some where … so if true a weak maybe. One thing for sure never found a cross seed from Fed… Only hip produce was a control flower l left un-crossed.

Have to wait to try a cross with a hardy repeater … that pretty well leaves me bankrupt (excluding rugosa hybrids). Only one in garden is RDxS (triploid devil). Merv didn’t accept RDxS.

If l want to lower my standards and roll the dice l could go to semi hardy, more options in garden …

Done this already by crossing by Merv with John Cabot (semi hardy) successfully as in germinated - JC a late bloomer but keeps going and comes back from winter shredded but alive. May try it with merv x fed if and when they bloom.

L-83 l have been surprised by it moderate to high hardiness but not done many crosses ( euphemism for none took). But receive a hint tetra might work.

But one l have not talked about is my Porsillini Kauntor x Bill Reid. This one - if survives mites etc - is rock hardy x sort of barely hardy. More chance to move forward.

But if any of 2022 crosses with Merv give me a deep clear hardy or semi hardy purple once blooming rambler ( or repeating climber ) l quit and retire permanently to Bequia to live off the spoils of commerce ( just kidding).

Support infrastructure capacity project completed.

[TimoNL]

Nice wine collection​:+1:

[RikuHelin]

“Ain’t over until it’s over” … Quote from my favourite all timer all star … YB. Though don’t think he was officially recognized for decades.

Five days later with no count made from Jan12 to Jan 17, count grown when checked after the prepping containers in grow out trays.

23 or up 10% in total germinations since 12th. Ticked didn’t do seed count. Remember small bag small seeds and guess 30-50 seeds

That is an absolute germination % rate range of anywhere from 46% to 77% over 360 hour for the seeds planted.

Blows away my personnel best ever - even with Merv and the species R xanthina.

Conclude obvious to me it’s all in the “name of the rose/ cross” … and its seed. Just id or guess and provide the nurturing conditions.

[Don]

Interesting to see you built out your light apparatus in the same way I did, leaving a tall area at the base to accommodate increasing seedling height.

Most surprising is that you are exposing your wine bottles to the light. I’m no expert but way back in organic chem 302 we learned about the detrimental effects of hλ on wine stability, particularly sunlight and fluorescent light.

You might want to drop a white curtain over the whole of your rig which would give the added benefit of multiplying the light intensity which is pretty weak relative to natural light.

Also, do I spy a timer? If so then you might also want to take it of out of service and leave the lamps on 24/7. Roses are not photoperiodic with respect to flowering. Plants in general don’t require a dark period except to induce flowering in those that are actually photoperiodic. Moreover the energy consumption could actually be reduced by leaving the lamps on full time if you have old style high-mass ballasts because a hefty part of the energy goes into heating the ballasts (that calculation was an excercise in Physics 210 iirc).

[RikuHelin]

hi Don,

Thanks. Aware of concerns of prolonged exposure but letting it ride for the few days it’s been operational - bottom shelf lights. lt is the “dark cool-cold dry dusty basement wine storage man cave” for last couple of decades.

Hoping dark colored glass absorbs the nasty Oppenheimer equivalent stuff in my mind for a couple days.

l don’t attempt to grow roses to flower and seedlings beyond May as planting time. This year was an exception l now regret. And none will be brought in come next fall. To make long story short it’s a pain in tassel until get a real green house (not going to happen).

Notice tonight either scale or “miniature pink maybe mealy bugs” under white cotton tent colonizing canes on two roses. Scrapped and hit with what’s on hand “rotene”.

I use 8-10 hour winter time light cycle purely for power cost economics and growth for planting but heaters 24/7. They’re new supposedly LED lights, box rated to 45.6 years (yeah right - not my experience with kitchen LED) at 40watts, 4000 lumens.

Also added 6” diameter small fan at same elevation as bottom of lower light canopy - points down. Science basis - nothing really except move air as stagnant and get the canopy of roses moving and stiffened up.

Though did 2nd year organic and 3 yr organic metallic decided pure arts chemistry not for me - engineering appeared more practical - after evacuated a lab.

Six foot long empty aquarium (120 real gallons) taking the designated stand real estate in TV room - awaiting eviction and demolition. Not repurposing or up cycling for gardening purposes.

Thanks again for cautions and suggestions.

[philip_la]

I hope you will share photos of first blooms when the time comes! Fedtshenkoana has always intrigued me. I once had a specimen in New Orleans in a pot before Katrina. I also had a potted Reine des Violettes that ended up in the same area, and when that one bloomed, I thought I had a new goal – to hang a mauve flower on a grey-leaved rose! It was a beautiful combo.
If you want to keep plants in the cellar for much longer, mylar sheets might be the way to go. Should make lighting more efficient as well as prevent some lighting “spill over” onto your collection. (Seeing how cheap they are, I’m thinking I should get some!) Amazon.com

[RikuHelin]

Ok, out voted and outflanked by concerned, smooth delivery inputs and links, which lends credence to the issue of welfare check and contingency action for the frail Cheval Blanc, LaTour, Haut Brion, Massetos, Messerio, Paleo, and Spanish Contador, Vega Scilia Unico and Valbuena, US and Portuguese examples.

$50 CDN roll, cheap risk mitigation.

Convinced also as saw an upside delay potential, and risk mitigation reduction, as in not amputating limbs or losing eyes in removing aquarium and cabinet that took 4 people to bring in.

Does not look like safety glass but as guillotine potential - even SG million pieces are a big work with a vacuum cleaner when explodes - like a porch railing pane did.

Purchased the Texalan “diamond embossed” roll.

Jan 22 Update

Good starting lead Phil, received today a 25 ft roll of Texalan “Diamond”.

Looks to my eyes, and working with it, as acceptable quality and robust for indoors. Does not seem to tear if you look at it too hard.

Pretty bright in canopy tent with front and back sides covered - but diamond texture does not result in glaring …. do have shiny side in. Just have to fab a canopy from material to fit short sides and with easy access for front and sides.

Be getting another roll before not available.

Jan 26 - Final Germination Count

“25”

As like an old 1971 Crowbar Canadian rock group song’s lyrics from their Bad Manners album goes …. “ Oh what a feeling … what a rush …” pretty well sums it up for me.

“And welcome darkness my old friend” … let astringent disappear in the grape juice … done with cloaking mod.

[RikuHelin]

Update March 30 2024

Thought some special, fellow hobbyist who are admirers of species roses would like to see a bi-modal representative sample distribution of the plant form characteristics from 24 R beggeriana seeds that were germinated in January 2024 - seed kindly provided by Margit.

Margit may want to add to the description of mother plant and surrounding biologicals - so l remain silent.

Also show a large leaf seedling at right end.

Tall ones 18” and shorts 9”.

All germinated and raised in same enclosed tray in 4” pots under lights and heat mat.

Minimum of 6 - 8 weeks before go outside.

Some being sent to fellow hybridizer out east who contributed sought after species roses and surprises to my collection. But got vendor stiffed by wrong beggeriana color he wanted … much to my benefit as l had been looking for it.

[MidAtlas]

Those are looking pretty burly, like they’re aiming to cover a castle in their first growing season… here, they would have been defoliated repeatedly by spider mites (and/or the treatment thereof) if they had managed to reach such proportions indoors during the winter. More thick-leaved roses will tolerate spraying to a point, but thin-leaved species and near-species roses tend go into revolt rather quickly when sprayed with anything much stronger than water.

My delayed stratification (until mid-January) tactic is paying off. The very first rose seeds are just beginning to germinate in the refrigerator here, but temperatures are mild enough for roses to be moved outside in case anything goes wrong under the indoor lighting, or if I run out of room.

Stefan