1st Green of 2024 - Two Step conditioning Before Ambient

[RikuHelin]

Hi Stefan,

Txs for the feedback and experiences. l intend to use them for crossing if still around when they decide to bloom.

Margit maybe preoccupied, so what l think l know of the mother plant has been relayed to me, (never seen it) in that the seeds are from the most eye pleasing bush in an academic botanical garden collection.

There are apparently 3 bushes. And in terms of better science clarity, there is a shrub of Rosa laxa Retzius nearby that has canes that have penetrated into the R. berggeriana mother bush drip line. Not a root stock laxa. The risk, or benefit depending on your view, is obvious to me, a higher potential for cross pollination opportunities (what the talls and/or big leaf shorty seedling may owe to their height and /or leaf size ? … pure 13 week old conjecture for now).

Hardening off of the seedlings has been noted as likely going to have to be done in small progressives steps - based observations that in the less than 3 hours out of their incubation chamber youngest leaves showed pronounced wilting and shrivelling. Very humid in container and on purpose.

No sprays have been used over the last ~ 70-90 days. Only the “mosquito larvae” terminating “organic” fungus gnat pesticide granules and yellow sticky tape. Speaking of which replacing the original Cadillac ace granules has been a challenge - newer version not up to scratch - lower dose likely.

I have been pleased the seedlings have not been attacked (immune by hard climate? genetic selection?excess humidity?) by botyris, pm or spider mites which have been, and still are, ongoing issues depending on location on the time spectrum for the indoor season duration. These have plagued their neighbouring enclosed heated container of cuttings from various roses, and my own crosses that are in an open holder.

Though the plagues are declining in viciousness in latter roses as the days lengthen out. I have noted new healthier leaf node growth on the crosses (coming out of dormancy?).

End result for me? May finally have the white version of beggeriana that is speculated to be the cause of why a small flowered (but very tall) rambler thrives down to Zone 2 (the Polstjarnan ?cross? from Finland hybridized by Wasast-Järnan, in 1937).

And it took less than 100 years, and only slightly longer than for the obtaining of R laxa by me to at least acquire known building blocks for potentially hybridizing cane hardy Arctic ramblers/climbers/roses.

Good on the prairie pioneer hardy hydbridizers who succeed in a much smaller world of options.

P.S,

Forgot to mention, at my hobbyist collector’s rep peril, to credit and name drop, that got lucky and received a clone from the original Ross Rambler mother plant that was in the good doctor’s garden … another parent producing bone hardy roses (laxa I believe) … availability of raw material excuses gone, … except for my hybridizing skills may need severe burnishing up.

[MidAtlas]

Now that you mention it, those seedlings do show a lot of variation, and probably include some hybrids. It might be handy to have some diversity to start with. I wonder if rootstock “laxa” (R. caesia) would even be wood-hardy there, but it would be interesting to see a hybrid with true R. laxa. The seedling on the right in your lineup does almost give that impression.

The humid isolation tent might just be your best friend–I don’t doubt that my main setup (all plants on different shelves of one open rack) is the reason that critters are able to move so freely from one thing to another, so once spider mites appear anywhere, they’re nearly impossible to eliminate. I don’t think that high humidity alone deters spider mites, since I have observed them happily ravaging rooting cuttings inside of sealed bags and they laugh at being sprayed by water (no matter how much or how hard). Keeping them from reaching those plants in the first place is probably the main reason for your success.

I haven’t succeeded in pollinating ‘Ross Rambler’ (I assume the original) so far, or in getting decent pollen from it, but probably need to try harder or figure out if there is some trick to it. It does set hips on its own, and others have used it in breeding, so something must work–maybe it’s just picky about which pollen it will accept. I should probably just try sowing those seeds to see what comes up. If a more fertile/easier seedling ever appears that is otherwise equal (or close enough) to the parent, that would still be a pretty useful improvement from my perspective. Some R. laxa-derived hybrids have been very fertile and easy to work with compared to ‘Ross Rambler’, but I wonder if most of those were bred from tetraploid forms rather than diploids like RR. I’ve never seen R. beggeriana being traded in the U.S., unfortunately.

[RikuHelin]

Hi Stefan,

l did have a sort of non-success with crossing RR#1 with Merveille as the seed parent back in 2022 … but doesn’t count for as Jeremy Clarkson calls his farm “diddley squat” … though one germination occurred, ended up as sort of a mini, never grew and didn’t last the summer.

Mind you that was only germination from a cross with a good to excellent seed parent, but as mentioned there was only one, from a half dozen hips pollinated and seeds stratified.

It definitely tells me that with even with both parents having a ploidy indicating good potential compatibility, a great seed parent germinator like Merveille, that using RR#1 as a pollen parent will be a challenging task. Never seen a hip on my bushes so used a pollen parent.

The beggeriana were particularly well received as only ones that germinated so far … on my 4th warm cycle and nada.

We are provided with the below photos of the bush and blooms taken July 19 2023 by Margit.

Over exposed was author noted, and as I note, because Alberta’s prairie summer sun can be very bright - as expected in Really Big Sky country - but long daylight hours absolutely fantastic for rose growth - not so much the winters.

[MidAtlas]

If my understanding is correct, RR #1 (aka Alberta Bouquet) is a hybrid offspring of ‘Ross Rambler’ with an uncertain pollen parent that produces few (if any) hips and probably has low overall fertility, not to mention having an uknown/undocumented chromosome number. ‘Ross Rambler’ itself is diploid, so RR #1 isn’t terribly likely to be a tetraploid like ‘Merveille’ probably is. That might help to explain your low yield of seeds and seedlings from that cross–but not necessarily the deleterious/lethal traits that you noticed in your seedling.

Do I remember correctly that you had gotten some other R. laxa plants now? With any luck, those will be tetraploid versions of that species, and in that case they might work better in such a cross. Normally in roses, using a higher ploidy parent seems to be more successful in terms of seed and healthy seedling numbers when it’s used as the pollen donor with a lower ploidy seed parent, although the chromosome imbalance could mean a greater number of triploid offspring that may or may not be fertile. Reversing the direction of the cross often yields drastically fewer seeds/seedlings, but seems to increase the percentage of seed production from unreduced pollen when it does happen–i.e., the offspring are more likely to be tetraploid. Of course, wide diploid-diploid crosses could be equally infertile compared with triploids, if not worse, a la ‘Polstjarnan’. A fertile triploid “bridge” rose could be very handy, if such a thing exists or if it could be created from species crosses in this Sect. Rosa/Cinnamomeae group.

I do love the silver-blue-gray foliage of R. beggeriana and R. laxa. The trait gets a bit diluted in their hybrids, but still lends some of them a hint of pewter that can be attractive and hints at the rose’s cold hardiness. I wonder, how high would R. beggeriana manage to climb there with support?

[RikuHelin]

Hi Stefan,

l was mistaken, RR#1 not on my defined ploidy table.

I do know that not due to my thorough paper research, l fluked a few good crossing with Merveille, as tetra x tetra during the ~ 169 crossings 2022 garden reconn survey.

Merveille assigned tetra ploidy by my garden ownership royal prerogative through royal divine guidance … in other words not found but noticed species documented by the meticulous abbey monks as tetraploid

You are correct finally scored a defined R laxa (Retz) from an Eastern friend that came from the Montreal botanical garden. Going to be a couple years before they bloom. Also scored a Retz from an Alberta botanical garden friend that bloomed in 2022. Except missed opportunity as didn’t notice the few blooms, but noticed terrific hips in fall. Didn’t see a bloom last year.

edit 1 info

Also note after chewing on it - as you mentioned, but not with my 100%+ cert. accreditation - that could have separate dip and tetraploid Alberta R laxa. examples - they were labelled as such when collected by me based on passed on info of work done by southern Phd researcher. Tetra is the one that bloomed first, still waiting on diploid.

Both ”loid” examples collected at same time. Tetra growing the best, but tenuous to conclude anything as it is in all day sun, while other in cold north garden.

end of edit 1

So the stock is there, and includes with R. lax (Retz) … and R beggeriana normalis, R. beggeriana nigrescens, and maybe potential Begg crosses from this years germinations … cinnemoa (sic) exists in garden. Also spino and hybrids stock, and odd agatha and gallica challenges waiting (have not succeed with latter).

Edit 2 April 5 2023

Should add birds in the climber bush, not in hand, to be added to genetic inventory, hopefully in the hand before May.

Have on order “Above and Beyond” rose samples to test in back cold Finn-like garden, but little snow, one for the coolish Bermuda-like front garden and one for the east side Kazakhstan-like (cold bone dry desert like - bakes - forget to water) climate garden.

Once patent, if any expires, and based on performance, another potential source of genetic “climber-hardy” material to test with yellow peach color. Based on northern Alberta recommendation to try. Hybridizer looks like they had good fortune with R laxa - Virginiana

End of Edit 2

The mentioned were pursued due solely and jointly, for zone and existing historical successes … only thing left … is the long, long wait for some to bloom … and selecting pollen / seed parents and a big whopping serving of hobbyist luck.

Update May 1st

Still 4-6” snow outside curtesy of late season storm - bare ground yesterday … appears stating the obvious to some the hardy beggeriana seedlings (with possibility x “X” in some of them) are suited for here as they grow fast, and my goal in that they do this for a potential mother plant … know they are most likely solid hardy as no tenders nearby seedling’s mother plant.

After 120 days from germination + / - now definitely a tri-modal pop. for height. Shortest but healthy 10-12 “, medium 14-18” and tallest (x3) a hair shy of clearing 2 feet. Also known as a “normal” distribution curve … Gaussian curve where l think the seedlings are within 6 sigma? Don’t know as have no other beggeriana data point distributions to compare to under same conditions.

The bonus is they all appear “besides very healthy, … branchy”.

However they “doth protest too much” about their 4” pots holding them back.

Not a glam photo but still shows height progress. Hardening off starts today - off heat mat and out of enclosed humidity chamber.

[MidAtlas]

Those look pretty wild for roses grown entirely indoors. I’d probably give them a little haircut at the top to help reduce shock from the changing conditions and to set them up for a healthy new flush of growth.

I hope you can get past the late snow risk soon! That sort of reminds me of the old Sunset Western Garden Book with its giant void of “Zone 1” covering nearly all of the western U.S. beyond the West Coast, a harsh and unforgiving land where snow “could occur any day of the year.” I guess it was the Californian gardeners’ version of “here be dragons.”

Stefan

[RikuHelin]

Yes trying to get through the Rockies like MacKenzie did, has not been successful as of yet. Turned down an offer 45 years ago as the lure of black gold was more appealing and longer lasting than eating the occasional lotus bulbs in my Thai curry sauces. However a few episodes of -45C (back when 7 hrs north of here) makes for momentary regret.

The obtaining of the beggeriana duo (ie plus nigrences) - has been a pleasant success for a back track search of acquiring two potential breeding parents - since never found a vendor (no money in it for them).

BTW my 2023 germination of “maybe” R xanthina x Tove Jansson (Jansen Janson incrt) has produced a scary looking spino based plant. It has thick long canes for a seedling that have absolutely wicked thorns - all over the winter indoor growing season - no exaggeration. Its drip edge diameter, to my eyes, stretches nearly the entire length of the Costco growing shelf. Thats about 3 feet.

Definitely made for filling the “Void” and deterring grizzlies.

[MidAtlas]

Now that’s a real looker–vigorous and pretty (at least, I personally find that combo of small leaflets and copious prickles attractive). The color combination in its background is vaguely similar to one that I raised from a cross between ‘Harison’s Yellow’ and ‘Doorenbos Selection’, which ended up having beautiful but surprising pink and white flowers with a hand-painted pattern. Its leaves weren’t quite as neat as yours, but it had similarly impressive vigor as a seedling. It will be interesting to see what your flowers look like! That thing looks like it could be big enough to bloom next spring.

P.S. in (dis?)honor of your “life below zero” germination philosophy, I just discovered a bag of ‘Alika’ seeds that I had forgotten in my freezer door for a few years after first giving them a warm stratification and then a long normal one–I suspect they’ve been in there since 2021, and I decided to give freezing a try as a last resort. We’ll see if anything happens now that I’ve relocated them to the refrigerator, although that would certainly be a first, since I’ve never managed to germinate ‘Alika’ seeds before. The parent plant finally gave up the ghost a year or two ago after a long battle with cane diseases and borers.

[RikuHelin]

Hi Stefan,

Good luck on Alika … l have also not succeeded.

There are three “gallica” origins roses that flummox me, splendens, alika and francofurtana.

Avoiding an unsolvable argument what l call alika and what l call splendens differ in garden in two attributes. Alika is hardier, the splendens l tried took 3 or 4 tries to get a plant to survive winter and have one now about 3-4 feet high (Cdn source).

They have been planted in the front every time and within 5 ft of each other. They also differ physically on the hip sepal lengths in my samples. Not crossed splendens, and alika has never worked as a seed parent. I believe a number of works claim splendens in crosses.

The third is francofurtana. Like alika sails through winter in both south and north gardens. l been planting cutting of former and alika all over garden.

I always believed at the start, alika and francofurtana were crossing keys to hardy interesting red red blend roses … just not succeeded.

Apparently somebody succeeded if to believe agatha came from francofurtana - sterile as seed parent - never seen a hip and none of my crosses took. Hardy in back north gardens - can get up to 7-9 feet.

Btw, do you know ploidy of the three? Assuming tetra seems to be a stretch even if gallica roots. Though l will default to it, and maybe also use diploid in this seasons tries.

[MidAtlas]

My assumption is also that ‘Alika’ is tetraploid, based on the crosses involving it as a pollen parent with higher ploidy roses resulting in tetraploid offspring–although that isn’t completely conclusive. I firmly believe that the true source of cold hardiness in ‘Alika’ and other roses of similar descent is actually the tetraploid species R. pendulina (syn. R. alpina), which is unfortunately not easy to find in North America at the moment. Seeing ‘Amadis’ survive stone-cold zone 4a winters without dieback (its other parent being a China) provides pretty reasonable support for that assumption, I think.

Other than ‘Ross Rambler’, I believe that my parents are still harboring some R. laxa seedlings that I grew from seeds that Joan Monteith generously shared some years ago. I was under the impression that they are from a tetraploid version (versus diploid in the case of ‘Ross Rambler’–assuming they are really the same species, which is debatable, in my opinion). I’m hoping to give them a try here in the relatively near future. ‘Ross Rambler’ has been hit or miss when it comes to surviving our long, hot, humid summers. Although my recollection is getting fuzzier as time goes by, the young R. laxa seedlings strike me as being possibly more similar to R. fedtschenkoana than to ‘Ross Rambler’. Even R. fedtschenkoana was short-lived here, though, so they might all have some trouble with longevity in this climate.

[RikuHelin]

Forgot, if l remember, or jogged l will collect some R. pendulina seeds (early bloomer) from a ~ 10 year plant that reliably blooms - Pickering source.

Be a good idea as it and a number of roses are under a choke out threat, including an Agatha, by Schubert choke cherry tree l’ve been banned from cutting down by my better half.

Not used it except as a test dab. I will send private RHA forum note when available.

[MidAtlas]

I would really appreciate that! Since you have it (wow, do I ever miss Pickering), you should definitely try using it in more crosses. It might be easier to go right to the source for some of the traits you’re after, and it should be fully fertile. It’s also the probable source of deep reddish colors in some R. spinosissima types.

[RikuHelin]

l can send you for now the vine ripened 2023 seed - as a contingency. Fresh would be probably late July (hips ripe).

For your notes, they been ripening on the vine next to a Prairie Peace and numerous “super hardies - Hazeldean and Suzanne’s around it and Lillian. However this rose blooms “very” early so lower prob. of contamination.

Top dressing the front and back yard beds so not a hassle. Into 3rd 1 m3 bag of Alberta Gold according to vendor (peat moss and compost). Have “not” gone 100% RHS peat free … millions and millions of acres up in bogs - according to some 285 million acres or 25% of world resource … but activist are working on protecting carbon sink. Still waiting for first claim found viking “ bog man”.

Yes and Pickering is very very missed, what a selection of roses back in the day. The other Ontario nursery mainly grows rose suited US zone 5 and up, but high quality and ethical. Got my splendens from them.

Pickering was ann incredibly wide zone spectrum vendor from a few for 2 to Marechal Neil, teas and china hybrids experiments during zone ranging and punishment learning days. l think they had ~ 500-600 varietal types including species. Very ethical when l dealt with them.

Quality small, grafted roses

[MidAtlas]

Any “contamination” from those varieties would likely be a plus, as unlikely as that might be!

It’s extremely difficult to avoid using Canadian peat here, since a viable alternative is simply not realistically available at this time. I don’t know how much of that is based on supply-and-demand economics versus policy, but the politics of peat here are very different from the UK and Canada. I’m skeptical that coconut coir is the answer, but more local peat substitutes have not yet appeared on the mass market in these parts.

The best thing that I could probably hope to offer you in kind is OP seed (later this season) from my best-colored clone of R. blanda; I selected it at my home in Minnesota, where it was growing wild. It evolved to survive zone 4a/3b temperatures and is much darker and showier than all of the other clones that I ever found. Better yet, it has proven to be equally at home in hot and humid Maryland, its only real enemy being cane borers.

‘Marechal Niel’ is one of my aesthetic and sentimental favorites, although I lost my plant–albeit not from Pickering–some years back due to unexpected winter wind rocking (like much of North America, this area can be awfully windy in winter, and since the soil doesn’t generally freeze here, large roses like that one can literally be rocked to death if not sufficiently anchored). Some of its flowers would ball, but when they were good, they were truly amazing to look at. I had fortunately managed to root a few cuttings first; the only survivor went to a friend who makes kusamono and probably takes better care of it than I did.

Different from Pickering though they may be, I have gotten excellent roses from Palatine, and always top-notch customer service. I haven’t ordered anything in the last two years due to runs on their inventory. It’s always great to see a small- to medium-sized rose nursery doing brisk business, though.

The dark MN R. blanda, freshly opened:

[RikuHelin]

Hi Stefan,

I sent a “mail” message, hopefully correctly.

"I harvested the 2023 R pendulina hips this morning (all), and obtained somewhere between between 50 to 75 seeds of varying physical appearance and quality.

They are prep’d with a fine mesh wine “fly” and sediment screen to reject loose detritus.
…

I would appreciate the blanda seed as it looks to be very interesting color. I only managed to get a Finnish (“rosa Herttoniemi") blanda to grow in the back garden. I will put any germination in the front warmer gardens."

One could say tongue in cheek the seeds have been treated down way beyond the Wisely test temp, down to -35 C this winter as we experience a couple of nights at that temp… Be interesting if any germinate.

Riku

[RikuHelin]

Have to cancel sending 2023 seed apparently one seed has likely a “megastigmus aculeatus larvae exit hole (11:00 o’clock in pic).” That was close.

Friend drew my attention to hole likely being the bug evidence. Their first note of holes in the past on their own seeds was confirmed by a real Ag/ bug doctor.

Apparently introduced in another country to combat a nuisance Rosa and has spread over the decades.

[MidAtlas]

Quite understandable–we already have that pest here (sadly–but quite possibly introduced in the U.S. purposefully, given the history with RRD), but it’s always good to be careful about such things.