I was chatting with a representative from David Austin’s yesterday about the parentage and likely ploidy of ‘Wild Edric’. He couldn’t tell me much off the top of his head and explained that he couldn’t disclose the precise parantage, but he was willing to look into it for me, and said he’d email me with whatever information he could.
So, I got his email this morning and I’ve pasted the relevant section below.
“I have now the parentage of Wild Edric and while I can’t give you the precise parentage I can tell you the seed parent is a cross between a bourbon and a rugosa hybrid bred by Svejda (not Therese Bugnet) while the pollen parent is one of our English Roses.”
I’ve checked Austin’s website and the only Svejda rugosa they have is Martin Frobisher, which makes it the most likely candidate. But I cant say anything for certain as they could have other rugosas produced by Dr Svejda’s. So I’m curious as to what people here would think about my assumption?
Also given what we ow know about the parentage, I’d imagine Wild Edric is a triploid or tetraploid. And as Austin’s did tell me they’ve never seen a hip on the rose, it would likely be best as a pollen parent if it were to be used. Which brings me to my main question.
Has anyone had any experience with Wild Edric? Hardiness, fertility, any feedback would be appreciated.
I hadn’t heard of Wild Edric before so I checked it out on HMF. You can certainly see the Rugosa influence and Martin Frobisher does sound plausable since he/they used it in two other introductions. On HMF there were three North American nurseries listed as selling Wild Edric but none of those three had it listed on their websites, so you might not get much feedback on it from this side of the pond.
Hmm, I wonder if they are sure it was a Svejda rose and not the work of some other Canadian hybridizer. When you said that the seed parent was a Rugosa-Bourbon cross I immediately thought of Wasagaming, which is by Skinner. I grow Wasagaming and from what I have seen (in pictures) of Wild Edric, it does seem a possibility. Pure speculation, though! Wasagaming is a really good rose, by the way–nicely shaped flowers, grey-green healthy (for me) foliage, good autumn color, excellent scent, top-notch winter hardiness. It also sets hips. The crosses I made with Martin Frobisher as a pollen parent before it died of terminal blackspot had narrow, ruffly leaves like those of Mrs. Doreen Pike. I never got any hips on Martin F.
I wasn’t to familiar with Wild Edric myself to be honest Paul. I just caught my eye when I was looking at their website. I had my doubts as to whether anyone here would have had much to do with it to, but I figured there was no harm in asking.
Betsy, the way I took the information was that they crossed a bourbon with Svejda rugosa hybrid, then crossed one of those seedling with one of their English roses. Hence the seedling X seedling listing for the parentage. Wasagaming does look an interesting rose though. I may have to order it next time I need to get a few varieties from Europe; next season perhaps. Thanks for mentioning it.
I’ve grown Wild Edric 4-5yrs (since it was introduced) in northern Alberta, Canada Zone 3 and you could’t go wrong by putting it on your order list…it is a very good rose. So far…as DA says…no hips and will not accept pollen from the most virile pollen parents I have…no luck with it’s pollen… I have a few more seed parents I want to try it on before I give up. If flower form means anything, to my eye it resembles Wasagaming more than Martin Frobisher.
Photo shows Hansa on the left, Wild Edric on the right
Thanks for the info Doug, it’s good to know it’s doing well for you in Zone 3. I didn’t expect it to be that hardy considering it’s at best only 25% rugosa. But then it looks a lot more like a rugosa than I would expect given the parentage, so perhaps I shouldn’t be surprised. Would I be right in assuming it’s just crown with you?
It’s a pity Edric is so reluctant to breed. I intend to do some pollen measurements before I use it to determine ploidy and see if it produces any good pollen. Could I ask if you’ve tried it with diploids, tetraploids, or both?
I’ve decided to go ahead and order the rose anyway, but the more information I have before I get started with it the better.
Under my conditions, I would conservatively say it is “snowline” hardy…it has the non-rugosa trait of throwing long canes that have difficulty in hardening off before winter…keeping the nitrogen away helps alot…but unlike some of Henry Marshall’s great roses that are crown hardy such as Prairie Joy (this rose for me has reliably held it’s ground and is the same size each year), Wild Edric continues to build architectural momentum. This rose would likely get very large in slightly warmer conditions.
So far I’ve used modern suspected tetraploids and the difficult (for me) Marshall triploid cultivar, Cuthbert Grant. So I wouldn’t want to discourage you…for me it is still an exciting goal to get a seedling from it…maybe I should have used one of Robert Erskine’s diploids such as Betty Will as my first step…lots of “should haves” in this business.
I would give Wild Edric’s pollen a try on both Prairie Joy and on Betty Will. I have Prairie Joy and it’s OP seeds germinated quite easily though I haven’t tried any crosses with it yet. It’s OP seedlings are very healthy so far. I don’t have Betty Will but it is a Rugosa hybrid and I’ve had good luck using hybrids as seed parents. Last year I tried Cuthbert Grant’s pollen on a Rugosa and none of the pollinations took whereas three tetraploid pollens took on that same Rugosa. This year I used CG pollen on my (Showy Pavement x R.blanda) and have 200 seeds from 6 hips. Also (SP x Rb) is the only plant that pollen from (Marie Pavie x R.blanda) took, and I’ve tried that pollen on just about everything. So you might have better luck using Betty Will as the seed parent.
Thanks for the additional information Doug. I’m surprised to hear it’s so hardy for you, but it’s good news that it is.
I plan to use it with diploids (no surprises there) and some seed fertile triploids so I’ll let you know if it works out with them. Considering its background it’s hard to know what’s going on with Edric. I’d like it to be a triploid myself (well I’d really like it to be diploid, but don’t think that’s realistic), but I have a suspicion it’s a rather infertile tetraploid. Guess I’ll have to wait till I get some pollen under the microscope to find out any more.
Funny you should mention using it with ‘Prairie Joy’ Paul, P.J. is on the list of seed parents I want to try ‘Wild Edric’ with. I also hope to have ‘Adelaide Hoodless’ to try it with, but I’m having trouble getting the international payment to go through so cant be sure that it’ll work out yet.
Still, I never really know if anything will work out with this hobby.
I haven’t grown Adelaide Hoodless myself but it is reported to be quite susectable to black spot. In fact “Roses for the North” that you mentioned in the other thread, has before and after “black spot” pictures of AH, and the difference is quite dramatic. So that is something to consider about using AH.
I had heard Adelaide Hoodless is prone to blackspot, but the plan is just to used it a source of juvenile bloom. Any seedlings from it would be back crossed to rugosa a few times, so I’m hoping it’s won’t be a major concern. But thanks for the heads up.
I understand, we all make crosses where we’re trying to get one or two good traits from a rose but have to deal with some undesirable traits as well. In the case with Adelaide Hoodless, it is fairly hardy and is very floriferrous but has blackspot resistance issues.
I have to say that great minds think alike though. I used the hybrid suffulta Cuthbert Grant pollen on B6901 (Showy Pavement x R.blanda) this year. CG isn’t nearly as floriferrous as AH is but it has pretty good disease resistance and I like the size and color of the flowers.
It’ll be interesting to what the offspring look like.
I’d be interested to see the results of that cross when they are in Paul. It sounds promising.
I have ‘Cuthbert Grant’ on order with ‘Adelaide Hoodless’ as it goes. I plan to use it’s pollen, after filtering, on ‘Prairie Joy’ and A.H. with the view of recovering a diploid seedling with juvenile flowering. I know the genes I want are in these triploids, but I’m not sure if they are homozygous or heterozygous for the trait so I need to get some seedlings out of them that I know are homozygous to start crossing with the species.
I’m basically going to hit P.J. and A.H. with all my Zone 2-4 hardy, diploid and triploid pollen parents that might be carrying juvenile flowering, as well as making some selfs with filtered pollen, and hope I get something I can use.
There are no guarantees of course, but I figure it’s worth a shot.
I haven’t used Cuthbert Grant in many crosses but must say it is a good garden plant for me. I love the Crimson Glory color and petal shape. Am I the only one who looks up the people that my roses are named after? Cuthbert Grant, the man, was an interesting historical character (see Wikipedia). Hope you enjoy Cuthbert Grant, the rose, as much as I do and get some good seedlings, Jinksy.
Are your Cuthbert Grant plants on own roots? How big does it get in, say, Minnesota? CG is sold in Finland as own root plants that are very slow and weak growing in our cool and short summers. I think it would do much better on a vigorous rootstock here. Unless you want to wait >5 years from planting for the own roots to build up.
MIne is on it’s own root and like yours it’s not very vigorous. I’ve had it for three seasons now and it only has two or three 30" canes so it didn’t have that many flowers on it. I’m hoping that it grows better next year. The plants I crossed it with are more vigorous than it is and I hope the offspring have their vigor with the flowers of CG.
Nice to see this rose being discussed, it is one of my favorites. I bought mine from Pickering in spring of 2012 only because they were out of stock on one of my choices. So I decided on a whim to give this rose a try. What a surprise. Vigorous and healthy as can be with some of the most beautiful foliage in my garden. In 2012 it was fed a few times with fish emulsion, but nothing this year. Blooms repeatedly and early–March of this year, and it was blooming a few weeks ago. No hips. I don’t have a clue when it comes to hybridizing, so I haven’t even looked to see if there is much pollen. Would love to see more plants like it. Btw, I have Wasagaming on order from Pickering for next spring. I could plant them closeby and see if there is much resemblence. Btw I’m in Southern California, in the inland empire heat, zone 9b. Wild Edric is very heat and drought tolerant here (another surprise). I have 2 selections of R. californica, Los Berros and First Dawn, growing next to and one rose apart, and both of them become wilty in the worst of the summer heat without plenty of supplemental water whereas Wild Edric just continues to look great. In full sun part of the day, dappled sun the rest.
“I used the hybrid suffulta Cuthbert Grant pollen on B6901 (Showy Pavement x R.blanda) this year.”
These seeds are already starting to germinate with only 3 weeks of cold treatment. I was hoping they wouldn’t start to germinate until after the first of the year but that didn’t happen. I’ll leave them in cold treatment as long as I can until I absolutely have to start planting them.