Why no bloom the first season?

I have a few seedlings that germinated last August that have not bloomed yet. All of the parents are repeat blooming, ie: Golden Celebration, Illusion, Leverkusen, and Lichtk

They could be non-remontant but remontancy can take time to initiate, especially in climbing types, depending on the genetic source of remontancy, sometimes even years.

For instance this seedling took seven years to flower initially and is now fully remontant.

Link: www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=44733

Thank you Robert. All of them have one climbing parent or grandparent so your point about climbers may be the reason they haven’t bloomed yet. I hope I don’t have to wait seven years like you did!

In modern roses where both parents are remontant is it possible to have non-remontant F1s? Is there the non-remontant gene(s) still lurking in the background of repeat blooming modern roses? Thanks for the information.


Hello Robert Rippetoe:

Beautiful rose, but what was it about the seedling that caused you to keep it for seven years without flowering, when I know that you don’t keep all seedlings, AND what other qualities if you observed them in a seedling would cause you to spare the ax so to speak for several years without flowering.

Thanks, Bob in New Orleans

“In modern roses where both parents are remontant is it possible to have non-remontant F1s?”

Yes, and most of the time they carry a gene for repeat that can be brought out in the next generation, but not always.

That’s why I don’t keep non-remontant seedlings unless they are really unique which happens more than I would prefer in the case of species hybrids.

Bob, I wish I could take credit for ‘June Anne’. It was created by my friend Avery Tunningley in NY. He shared it with me but had no plans to share or register it. I asked if I could register it and name it for my Mother June Ann.

I registered the seedling as ‘June Anne’ with an “e” to delineate it should I choose to name another rose of my own creation June Ann and to give a nod to the roses Noisette lineage with the addition of the “e” in the the French spelling of Anne.

It’s a wonderful rose that is being discovered by more people all the time. Roses Unlimited seems quite pleased with it.

Nobody would normally keep a rose seven years for evaluation. My friend has acreage and lines out some of his seedlings. I think he was more surprised than anyone to discover the seedling became remontant after so long.

Roses never cease to amaze.

Robert Rippetoe:

Thanks – great story, but I was hoping you were going to tell me you had a crystal ball that enabled you to see 7 years into the future. :slight_smile:

Bob in New Orleans


Thanks for the response. If I don’t get bloom this season I think I’ll toss them. I don’t have the room to hold on to them. Any guess as to why it took June Anne to bloom 7 years?



I feel that the full paper is worth getting.

Link: www.springerlink.com/content/l263r22411312623/


That sounds like it would be a great article. Thanks for posting the link.


As I understand it, roses like many other types of plants sometimes experience a juvenile phase. They need to reach a certain stage of maturity before they initiate flowering.

In the past breeders have overcome this by budding and sometimes the use of interstocks. Once the rose is in its adult phase it can usually be propagated and retain it’s adult flowering characteristics.

I recall in the 1990’s a group working with apples (a Rosacae) had patented some engineering having to do with a flowering factor produced by roots. The idea was to accelerate the onset of fruit production in new trees.

Maybe some of the botanists here can shed more light on the various influences like this that affect flowering?

kim Rupert’s ‘Indian Love Call’ breeds a high percentage of once bloomers, which is quite surprising considering it’s pedigree. Often the most robust and thornless seedlings are also non-remontant.

I had the same experience with ILC Paul. I got two remontant OP seedlings out of a thousand or more seedlings last year.

I kept the most vigorous double one and gave the extra one to Mike Fitts last week.

Both are smooth so far.

See link for the one I gifted. Both seem fertile.

The double one is deep red. Both are fragrant.

Link: www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=55926&tab=1

One of my unexpected seedlings came up and did nothing bloomwise, in a bed with four mature Noisettes. The leaves looked interesting (meaning it wasn’t a random multiflora seed drop). The second year, it bloomed and continued blooming with very little stoppage throughout the year.

I was telling Doug Seidel about it and he commented that he thought it was probably a ‘true’ noisette as they don’t bloom until their second year.

There are references in some old rose books (late 1800s) that there are some roses that don’t bloom until their third year. (Fortunes Double Yellow was one, IIRC)

Robert, how many years was that seedling growing outdoors in New York? The reason I’m asking is that in a place like Schenectady, it’s quite possible that repeated winter injury might have delayed the onset of maturity, which can be influenced by the size/height of the plant (as happens in apples, for instance).

Stefan, ‘June Anne’ grew outdoors for seven years. Yes, its possible cold damage delayed onset of maturity, although she apparently comes through the Winter with very little visible injury in that climate.

Interesting! I have a seedling, who is 2 years old, hasn’t bloomed yet and wants to be a giant climber, putting out 6’ new canes almost an inch in diameter despite the fact that it’s still in a little 5 gallon pot. It’s been totally ignored and just keeps living. I’ve been at a loss as to what to do with it, not wanting to toss such a strong, healthy, vigorous plant, yet not having the room to put it in the ground to see what it will eventually do. I guess, I need to reconsider my options after this thread.

Judith, I had an open pollinated seedling of ‘Crepuscule’ that was just as you describe. I kept it around waiting and waiting for it to flower. After about the fourth season my patience gave out and I relegated it to the compost heap.

It might have flowered eventually. Perhaps the climate here didn’t provide whatever trigger was required in it’s genetics to initiate flowering?

At some point we have to move on.

I believe that SOME seedlings have fatal flaws in their makeup that prevents flowering EVER. I have watched a number of seedlings that have grown well and shown many fine qualities except that they have never, ever bloomed. I believe Ralph Moore has told me he’s seen this happen occasionally as well. On the other hand, I have selected healthy, attractive seedlings and held them for several years before they started to bloom. Some of these eventually became repeat bloomers! Go figure.

Part of my 2000 class were three Rugelda X R15 seedlings.

One is a 12 foot “monster” with nice spring double yellow flowers (no leaf disease).

The second is a 6 foot bush with spring double yellow flowers (not as nice as on the climber). It does get some blackspot.

The third is a one and a half foot “runt” that has never flowered (no leaf disease).