Why does Mme. Gregoire Staechelin bloom only once?

I noticed that one of this season’s OP seedlings of Mme. Gregoire Staechelin has already formed a flower bud. This is rather exciting for me because this is my first flower bud since I started trying growing roses from seed (all OP at this time).

I checked the parentage of Mme. Gregoire Staechelin and found that both parents (Frau Karl Drushki and Chateau de Clos Vougeot) I believe, are remontant. I thought that remontancy is a recessive trait. If this is so (and, I certainly may be mistaken although I did check the RHA “Next Step” literature again this morning) how does an offspring lose remontancy? Perhaps it’s a ploidy thing?

Any comments would be helpful.

I’m a newbie.


How old is the plant? I read a comment on HMF about my Bourbon; ‘Vivid’, that it is remontant but for the first few years in the ground it would probably only flower once in spring and then, once fully established, it would slowly become more remontant. Maybe this happens with others as well???

For reasons unknown, some remontant cultivars breed non-remontant offspring. Some of the Damask Perpetuals do this, and ‘Frau Karl Druschki’ is known to do this as well. Take ‘Paul’s Lemon Pillar’ for example, bred from ‘Frau Karl Druschki’ and ‘Marechal Niel’. Both parents remontant. but the offspring is not. We don’t know why. I suspect it might be that certain classes employ different remontancy genes and the genes work independently. One copy of remontancy gene X and one copy of remontancy gene Y = no repeat. Thats one possible scenario. Nobody knows for certain.

And as Simon said, some lines of breeding require a few years to start repeating. The Hybrid Perpetual breeding lines are known to be this way; seedlings are often not remontant until they are three years old, or more.


Some roses descending from Chateau de Clos Vougeot seem to have issues with very little repeat after the first flush.

I believe Paul is correct: There seem to be more than one type of recurrence. David Zlesak wrote a good summary of the topic for the RHA newsletter a few years back (it



Don’t be surprised if a portion of those ‘John Davis’ crosses turn out to be entirely non-remontant.


If that happens, they most likely would have two of the R.laxa type recurrence genes and two of the China type recurrence genes. If they have other characteristics that warrant further use, they still could be used in further breeding to recapture recurrent bloom, by breeding back in either direction or even to a sibling.

In spite of not having juvenile bloom, there can be advantages to the R.laxa type recurrence. I have a Morden Centennial OP plant that didn

Paul G: Are the John David OP you are talking about from David Zlesak? David sent me two of these several years ago, and he and I communicated at the start of the 2008 season to try to figure out which clones I have. In any event, I used the one that sets OP hips (but never works for hand-pollination) as a pollen parent extensively last season. The reason is that, a couple of years back, I tried pollen from both clones on a range of modern roses. The offspring segregated for juvenile recurrence. I can


Yes they are from David. I actually have three plants, two are seedlings of the John Davis OP

Yes, I have the parents, not the OP seedlings. The house clone is the one I used last year. I believe it is the same as Jdopgreen, which is the tetraploid one. The descriptions and pictures David sent me are perfect matches, except my

OK, I think I meant woods, not house. My records aren’t here.