Where is Seedling’s Dominate Early Axial Branching From?

On 20% of one cross this year, the seedlings have dominate axial branching very early.

The cross female parent is a (Nordic Gallica), and male is R.kordessi x (“Masquerade” x R. laxa Retz?).

Pink Masquerade by Simonet is the male parent in the cross with R. kordessi to produce the explorer rose John Cabot.

I have germinated OPs of the gallica female and not seen it on them.

This branching started early, and from the first true leaves and is carrying on up sequentially at every axial, and 50% so far of main lead. I believe every axial is going to put them out.

They’re not axial growth fails, but robust to my eyes and true branching. Seedling can not carry its full cane length at 6 weeks. The branching reminds me of Morden 6910 growth character.

Seedling example in photo 6 weeks old, 10 inches high today. Not self supporting.

The is unusual for my experience, so curious, as I use to ram rod straight spinosissima seedlings. I have seen something similar on mature Morden 6910 main canes.

I am interested in those who have seen it on cold hardy roses, which of the parents and ancestor could of it come from … R. kordessi ?

Does R. kordessi have this trait?

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I suspect that branching behavior has more to do with hormones and hormone sensitivity than it does with species background, per se. I often find some siblings from the same cross with strong branching and with relatively little branching, and it can be part of the criteria for selection or elimination. Plant architecture is obviously affected by this, and more branching also frequently translates to more flowers or better repeat bloom, at least in remontant seedlings. On the other hand, I’ve had weirdo seedlings that carry it to an extreme and branch themselves silly, to the detriment of normal growth, so there can be too much of a good thing.


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Hi Stefan,

Thanks thats is an excellent experienced based learning info. transfer. The same gallica seed parent with fedtschenkoana and Suzanne produced seedlings that appear to behave per normal, mind though less seedlings in those two populations. Suzanne’s weaker but early days.

My one seedling of the gallica x RR #1 is leafing quite vigorously … for all 1 1/2 to 2 inches :slight_smile:

Definitely will not be tossing the “branchers” or any even the diminutive x RR #1 until bloom time arrives. And fortunately have enough to sacrifice (test) one for first winter hardiness answer as a seedling - RDxS sails through as a 1 year cutting :seedling: . Rest held in grow room is the plan for this winter coming.

Hoping also to see if some of axial ones have climber/ rambler tendencies though just large roses that are well blooming is good enough.

I doubt disease susceptibility will be an issue in my garden.

Forgot was ur quest for RDxS successful?

The site has improved - only works well on lap top but not cell. I never saw it, but none of the below l acquired were listed, but due to an owner benign higher ideals heritage rose moment and genetics need to be saved and in circ / prop, l was granted access to spread the genetic code using premies material (aka runners).

My non-listed heritage roses runners on the way this week as finally hit over 20C after a bit of snow last week. Dr FL Skinner, another Isabelle Skinner, Yaktan (tk?), Indian Head found rose, Grannies found rose, Gay Centennial, and RR #3 - it was a mistake in my post above l used RR #1 for the “mini” to be confirmed cross.

I like to to hold seedlings for observation for as long as possible, too, because that is the only way other, less immediately obvious virtues tend to be discovered. On the other hand, if I am blessed with an overabundance of seedlings from one cross involving repeating parents and they’re all very similar and none of them promise to flower as juveniles, those might just get the “tough love” treatment from me to weed out all but the very best of them! Around here, “tough love” means putting them outside when they’re still fairly small.

I’m afraid I didn’t ask about RDxS yet, although I still plan to. I ended up getting a bit overwhelmed this spring with work and too many plants already on order, so I figured I might instead inquire gently after they’re past the madness of the spring ordering and shipping season. Hopefully that could lay a solid foundation for getting one next spring (assuming it is actually available, of course). That does set back any thoughts of breeding with it, and sets back any screening of seedlings for cold hardiness still more.

I’ve also been trying without success for some years to get ‘Suzanne’ itself to establish and grow here, even just long enough to actually bloom and collect pollen. It so far fizzles out before even getting going in this torrid climate. I’m going to give it yet another shot, and will not make the mistake of waiting to replant into better soil this time (so many rose nurseries use such horrible potting medium!), just in case that makes the difference. Not that it is necessarily possible to go back to it and create a similar (or better?) rose, but it seems like it ought to be worth a try, at least.

I think that seedlings with some early branching like yours might still easily work as climbers–and the long internodes are also very promising from that standpoint. The “best” branching behavior that might not be quite as conducive to training as a climber often shows up as the early production of very strong, thick canes from the lowest portions (frequently just above the cotyledons) in seedlings. It’s basically a seedling version of major basal break production.



Got the order delivered today of “unlisted”, very good shape, even the runner quality was high by my collecting standards.

Think l scooped cold zone rosarian Canada as the found rose, the Indian Heads were huge vs expectation - will have to be protected.

My original version in garden got thumped good by blizzards, snow weight, thaws and cold like a lot of roses this winter past - not protected but only damask l remember blooming for me in 25 years. Looks to have strong lateral prickles with slight curvature. In other words damask is not an invalid guess.

Got to try in earnest to find a receptive hardy seed parent.

Two addition samples 1.5 to 2 feet of cane and more than 1 ft of fine roots - l choke on the score. South Bay window spots.

Grannies’ Rose et al runners v. good.

Ah yes, the ancient quest for the reliable, ultra-hardy (but non-rugosa) seed parent. That is definitely the ultimate goal for moving forward. It seems to me that many of the better seed parents tend to be grounded in Synstylae, which means that a lot of cold hardiness has to be layered in from other sources. I hope that one of those at least damask-adjacent types proves to be that missing link for you. If fertile they should make an excellent base for a line of fragrant hybrids, too, I would think.

I can’t remember if I’ve asked before, but have you tried Above and Beyond there yet? I haven’t used it as a seed parent personally, but others have, so it is at least capable if not extremely fertile in that direction (but it also has very fertile pollen).


Hi Stefan,

Yes you hit it right on the nail and through the 2x4.

Based on my 2022 recon crossing survey results using mass action effect approach (aka random feelings what might work and ~125 crossings) the results say a big slog to come to find the hardy seed parent - w/o resorting to rugosa or warm climate seed parents. Still choked R.kordessi is apparently some morphing derivative of the rugosa of Max Graf. Going rugosa in my garden is inviting anemia in due to calcareous soil.

The hard obvious facts … random not a good enough approach. Didn’t work with high enough success wrt time and effort for the economic technocratic side of maximize the time return.

But got crosses that germinated from a series of hardy pollen parents using the pioneer’s template approach of tender seed parent (gallica) and hardy pollen parent ( e.g. an Explorer, and a rock hardy species and hardy F1 + males).

Only one giant oil slick on golden pound … only one tender female worked … the Finnish Gallica. Logically figures Sisu would make it through the hard bog slog alive. Trust part of my heritage to give non-science existential guidance to pull through w/o a massive mud face flop … :-)).

“Worked” at this stage of the program development only means “germinated” - nothing else matters. Making seed was the first step as per usual and got that with a pass of 50%.

Semi facts against random approach worth - haven’t done detailed postmortem against 2022 table data but of ~ 125 crosses, 50% generated seed, (maybe half dozen tender or tender remontant ones used as seed parent) of those only the cross with the Finn gallica hybrid geminated. Parent flips tried also for prized ones.

The seedlings to-date don’t appear to bare a strong resemblance to the gallica so some real crossing appears to have occurred. But time required to confirm.

From the survey l know l am in trouble for finding a good hardy seed parent … probably the Wrights et al discovered that one long ago. Or figure to get the better bloom form or color it was the best approach to use the superior tender as the seed parent.

I have not found A & B locally. Need to chase it harder - probably in Manitoba. Thats where l convinced a local nursery to get me some Lillian Gibson before Bailey’s plowed the field of them in the US under according to rumour (info from deceased gallica rugosa writer and nursery owner).

Noticed some Scandinavians write they use it but cant recall parentage side (meaning it should be hardier ). Got laxa as l remember so good starting block and large rose - another good attribute l like.

Who knows but l continue to have fun in the hobby.

Forgot in the sprit synstal. experiments, here is this winter results on roses we discussed in past and part of my thornless climber experiment (pollen and seed) … no surprises in long term, after a couple winters protected … lykkefund had a bad winter, 60-70% cane length loss. Helenae hybrida disappeared under soil, and Ydrerosen disappeared under soil.

Found growth under soil for last, not checked Helenae. No 2022 crosses germinated so far. Trays in fridge for long term.

“So, In the spirit of not learning, l planted my third Zeffy for climber and thornless code input for this summer. Only bourbon that lasted the longest with some bloom - c/w protection.

However The Gift made it through first winter with protection - planted last year and source was gift from Quebec hybridizer “Ami”. So if blooms going to be a Christmas tree of x- tags.

It’s good to hear that The Gift is making it for you–being so close to R. multiflora, it could object to alkaline soil almost as much as a rugosa, but maybe that one has enough of something else in it to buck the trend. Darlow’s Enigma is another one in a somewhat similar vein, and produces very small hips but has decent germination. It seems to be pretty flexible when it comes to soil pH. The Synstylae seeds are likely to germinate far better with ordinary refrigerated stratification than a frozen one. It’s possibly no more fruitful in terms of getting good germination to use a really pure Synstylae over any random modern that has improved hardiness, I suppose.

It will be interesting to hear how your gallica-Explorer crosses work out. I tried some similar OGR+Explorer crosses back in MN, and maybe had too small of a sample size or too narrow of a range of crosses to generalize, but mine didn’t seem to be genetically happy. There were some odd dwarfs that died young, as I recall, and quite a few that never even developed true leaves. There were no real successes for me.

If you’re interested enough in A&B to try it, I bumped into one Canadian nursery with online ordering that evidently ships (T&T Seeds–no idea of their reputation) and another in Edmonton that you’d have to visit to pick up anything ordered online (Prairie Gardens). That would probably still be quite a hike for a rose, but at least it’s probably not as far as Manitoba. Hopefully you’d have other business to make such a long drive worth your while!

It’s a bit surprising to hear that ZD outlasted your other Bourbon roses. It was always frozen clear to the ground in MN seemingly no matter what I protected it with, but Louise Odier typically had live wood at least a few inches above the mulch, which isn’t a lot of extra wood overall, but seems like a huge increase in hardiness by comparison. Louise is also seed fertile, and if you were going to try to use a Bourbon at all in breeding, I think you could certainly do worse.

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