I currently grow a seedling of Livin’ Easy X Robusta. It has no rugosa foilage. The only aspect that it does look like a rugosa are the flowers… which look more rugosa-ish than Robusta because they have the mauveish tinge to them.
But for me, I don’t consider this a rugosa hybrid anymore… it’s too diluted.
Another similar case:
I grow a seedling of kordesii x basye’s amphidiploid. We know that R. rugosa is the great-grandparent on both sides…
The single flower that bloomed this year looks strongly rugosa (single… deep mauve-pink… clove fragrance.) It’s thorns are very much like rugosa. But two things remove it from being a rugosa: it doesn’t have rugosa foilage, and it’s highly likely to be a tetraploid. But people could say that this is a rugosa hybrid.
And we have a host of roses that are designated in certain classes which I don’t agree. And that’s what I want to hear. When do you believe a rose ceases to be a certain class? Do you bass it on how a rose looks, or do you bass it on a rose’s parentage.
Since botanical systematization basically stop at rose species, and registration allows for the breeder to choose a class at that point, it’s purely subjective at whim.
I would choose growth pattern since the classifications are largely for business purposes. Otherwise, a rose is a rose is a rose.
Enrique, I agree with Jadae. New roses should be classed based on how they appear. If a particular rugosa hybrid looks more like a floribunda, it probably should be classed as a floribunda. You could always mention its rugosa qualities, if any, in the description.
Jim Sproul
Ditto again.
In response to your question, I was going to post a rhetorical question as to where some cultivars get off being designated in the classes to which they are relegated… Polyanthas, theoretically, have multiflora genes, but not always. Floribundas, in theory, were derived from polyanthas, but often are not so. “Cluster-flowered” roses are, to my mind, a better designation as the pedigree is not insinuated.
Of course many breeders circumvent the issue by creating their own classes or collections based on their own marketing criteria.
But generally, when one has departed enough from the species, I personally think descriptive classifications are best.
I do understand that you are saying, “when is that departure far enough” to ignore the pedigree-derived classification. I suppose it’s subjective, but to my mind, a plant whose genotype is less than 1/4 of plant “x” and has little resumblance to “x” shouldn’t bare the nomination “x”.
I don’t know if this is too far off the subject but since R. kordesii was mentioned, I’ve often wondered how this one received a species status. Any thoughts?
I would agree with Phillip that “a plant whose genotype is less than 1/4 of plant “x” and has little resumblance to “x” shouldn’t bare the nomination “x”.”
I don’t know if this is too far off the subject but since R. kordesii was mentioned, I’ve often wondered how this one received a species status. Any thoughts?
I would agree with Phillip that “a plant whose genotype is less than 1/4 of plant “x” and has little resumblance to “x” shouldn’t bare the nomination “x”.”
By definition, R. Kordesii is NOT a species. If you or I crossed R. arkansana with R. glauca (just as an example), and selfed one of the seedlings, the resulting offspring are NOT species, but hybrids. R. Kordesii? Same thing. The fact that it produces seedlings identical to itself isn’t the sole factor determining species status The inverse has to be considered as well: some species are extremely variable…so do we remove them from species status because their seedlings DON’T all look alike? Of course not. Say what you want, R. Kordesii is a hybrid IMO.
Thank you Paul. I was thinking along the same lines that kordesii is a ‘species hybrid’ but in quite a bit of reading I’ve done I’ve seen it mentioned as a species. One article mentioned that an exception was made for R. kordesii for some reason. I was just curious what the thinking was here. Am I correct in my thinking that one can’t create a species but only species hybrids?