Recorded this morning:
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Very interesting work, Joe. The several cases of assumed identity remind me of the stories I have heard about Percy Wright âguestimatingâ the parentage of his hybrids from their phenotypes and nearest neighbors.
Regarding the suspect Tuscany cross, it does look doubtful that it has Persian Yellow in it but Iâd do a few deliberate selfings to check since you have the room and, well, what a hoot it would be if true. BTW, I once toured the Elizabeth Park âHeritageâ Garden, a small side lot filled with OBGâs and unknowns, with Lily Shohan who we had asked to help identify some of those unknowns. A we passed over a known rose, Tuscany Superb, Lily corrected us because it was only Tuscany, no Superb. Apparently the Superb version is mega-double and ours was only really, really double.
Looking over my notes on Tuscany I found this one from Paul Barden that is interesting.
âAs much as I like âTuscany Superbâ, you will struggle to get anything very dark in color from it; the second you mate it with anything modern (to get remontancy genes started) you almost always end up with medium to deep pinks, some of them really dirty colors. You will also end up with a percentage of seedlings that suffer from badly formed/deformed flowers.â
http://rosehybridizers.org/forum/message.php?topid=31436&rc=12&ui=2732866340
Well done and interesting pursuit of hardy garden worthy roses. Keep it going.
l grow examples of Metis (phonetically spelled as âmay-teeâ and is the way l pronounce it) but find significant die back ⊠keep it because the buds are unusually large and deep red making it attractive as it blooms. Nitida like foliage is a big plus. Another target for the list. May have mentioned before Nitida species made it through another winter (5) but still betting only going to 6-12â. Probably why Metis has issues for me but still comes back 3-4 ft. per season. How thick are the canes on your crosses?
Did end up crossing the unknown yellow with Suzanne, and with unknown single white âspino or altia (sp)â that blooms a weak yellow. Roses in sunny south garden. Bloom size of 3 to 4 inches of the white âspinoâ reminds me of golden wings but no fantastic filaments etcâŠ
I pretty much have missed my window to pollinate the taller, hardier, apparent Metis this year, unfortunately. A combination of being busy and burnt out and not having enough reblooming pollen available.
Riku, your Metis sounds like the first one I had, which also died back last winter. My seedlings of it are tiny yet. R. nitida itself doesnât seem to die back much if at all here.
I have a couple of nice Modern x R. nitida seedlings blooming this year. One is with Miracle on the Hudson and the other with Canadian Shield. Also several R. nitida x my seedling 1113, which have boring single pink blooms as expected. Several R. nitida x Can Can seedlings either have no blooms or somewhat small, stunted blooms but very nice foliage and are clearly hybrids. The modern/nitida seedlings whose pollen Iâve looked at under a microscope have had some very nice pollen grains, giving hope that the nitida pathway will be easier than the rugosa pathway. I have a R. nitida x Beauty of Leafland that is clearly a hybrid but too young to bloom yet. Overall Iâm excited to move forward incorporating R. nitida into modern rebloomers.
BTW, R. nitida x Tuscany Superb seemed to produce weak seedlings that have not bloomed (and are not really showing any sign of TS). Whereas the aformentioned modern/nitida crosses are showing great hybrid vigor in general.
Don, Tuscany Superb itself was an utter dog for me here, dying nearly to the ground each year and developing performance-art levels of leaf ugliness. I have a TS x PJPORCELAIN (Prairie Joy x Porcelain Rose) that is blooming for the first time and is nice and shrubby. Gallicaâs seem to combine well with moderns.
My only seedling of Tuscany Superbâ x âHenry Kelseyâ has very double, dark red flowers with very attractive foliage. The shrub has a sprawling habit. It grows in central Saskatchewan (Zone 2) and therefore winter kills severely each year, not producing flowers unless well protected. Iâve now switched to using âJohn Davisâ instead of âHenry Kelseyâ, and there is no reason why I wonât continue to have good results breeding âTuscany Superbâ with appropriate staminate parents, which I think Iâm doing.
I left you comments on the video.
In jest sort of, it took 5 years (own root), and many die downs and bunny attacks (labelled R. nitida). It bloomed for the first time ⊠sort of counts. Going to cross with my super-hardy Agatha (doesnât set hips), if not already too late ⊠may not return for 5 more. 12 inches high.
⊠x prairie peace instead
It seems that âTuscany Superbâ relies on a co-pigment to shift the color towards the purple/violet. Similarly, the co-pigmented Baby Faurax crossed with Belinda gave the vivid red Marjorie Fair. Thatâs a bit of luck, but Iâm guessing the breeder was aiming for a BF-shade.
To keep the color of a Tuscan-type color, or most of it, a cross with another co-pigment type would be in order. âBaby Fauraxâ and âSweet Chariotâ come to mind. âErinnerung an Brodâ should give an even better color, but no rebloom ⊠unless the latent Damask Perpetual ancestry of âGĂ©nie de ChĂąteaubriandâ pops up. âLouis XIVâ is another possibility. The color is wildly unstable, from season to season. Thereâs a warning in there. The color of a once-bloomer may not work out in different weather.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Rose_Pictures/L/louisXIV.html
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/KKing/RosePigments/RosePigments.html
âCharles de Millsâ?
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Rose_Pictures/C/charlesdemills.html
âReine des Violettesâ seems to be another of the co-pigment types. Of the very few offspring listed in HMF, the only one that was of the âblueâ persuasion was âMme E. Rocqueâ [Veilchenblau x Reine des Violettes]. Two co-pigmented parents produced a co-pigmented child (once-blooming).
LeGriceâs âNewsâ [Lilac Charm x Superb Tuscan] might be helpful, especially if it were crossed with a different âSuperb Tuscanâ cross, such as âJames Masonâ. Depth of color might be recovered, though maybe not the co-pigmentation. âLilac Charmâ, being of the âGrey Pearlâ lineage, may not contribute to the purple color, though it could give a lilac underlay.