veilchenblau ploidy?

Would anyone know the chromosome count of veilchenblau? I would imagine it

I bought it on the assumption that it was a diploid. I guess using its parents as a reference.

HMF states Crimson Rambler is a hybrid multiflora so I assume that its a diploid.

R. rubifolia (R. Brown ex Ait. fil.) is a diploid according to the septet thing which, I have been told, has dubious accuracy.

It could be any of the above really. If we were to assume that the red color and mildew came from a hybrid perpetual in the Crimson Rambler. By looking at another one of Turner’s crosses he uses an HP as a seed parent so (and purely on assumption only) it would be a guess that Crimson Ramber is a 2/1 diploid. With the other parent it is a 1/2 diploid by parentage although to know both ACCURAETLY I think testing is the only sure route. But by assumption Id guess a 2/1 x 1/2. From what I have seen of it personally I would guess maybe a fertile triploid? Also, a lot of it lineage on HMF shows it goes both ways with polidy as a seed or pollen parent.

It is a diploid, for sure.

The Garden Magazine pp. 253-256 (June 1915)
Ernest H. Wilson, Arnold Arboretum
In 1878, Prof. R. Smith sent from Japan to a Mr. Jenner in England a Rose which the recipient named “The Engineer” in compliment to the profession of its donor. In course of time this Rose came into possession of a nurseryman named Gilbert who exhibited some cut flowers of it under the above name in 1890, and received an Award of Merit from the Royal Horticultural Society. Soon afterward Messrs. Turner, of Slough purchased the stock and changed the name to “Crimson Rambler.” Now, this Rose is generally assumed to be a hybrid between Rosa multiflora and some Chinese Monthly Rose. To me this view is untenable. I do not think it has any Chinese Monthly blood in it at all. It has long been cultivated in China and I consider that, like the Seven Sisters Rose, it is a sport from the common, wild pink-flowered Chinese Rambler (R. multiflora f. cathayensis). These various Chinese Roses were introduced from Chinese gardens where they have been cultivated from time immemorial and their wild prototypes were not discovered, much less introduced, until comparatively recently.

Everybody’s Magazine 24: 746-757 (1911)
The Quest of the Perfect Rose
Franklin Clarkin
“Veilchenblau,” wrote Herr Schmidt, “is a direct seedling of the ‘Crimson Rambler,’ not cultivated by fructification with another kind. By culture of several years, the new kind has rested constant. There have been no dosings with chemicals. The flowers appear in large umbels, are semi-double, and of medium size; when opening, partly reddish lilac; partly rose lilac, changing to amethyst, and, when fading, steel-blue; the general impression is that of the March violet. The color changes according to the place and soil. It has a substantial growth, pleasant tea scent, bright green foliage, and few but sharp thorns; up to the present it never has been attacked by mildew, and is one of the hardiest climbers. Trials of crossing with sorts apt for this purpose will be made; and probably we shall soon be able to greet the much-longed-for cornflower-blue rose.”

The pollen parent of ‘Veilchenblau’ is unknown. The notion that ‘Veilchenblau’ is descended from R. rubifolia through ‘Erinnerung an Brod’ seems to have been borrowed from ‘Donau!’ [= Erinnerung an Brod x Hybrid of R. wichuraiana Rubra].

So, is it is or is it ain’t Crimson Rambler x Erinnerung an Brod?

It is definitely an OP seedling of ‘Crimson Rambler’, according to Schmidt. He made no mention of ‘Erinnerung an Brod’ being nearby, or even in the same breeding area. And there is nothing about ‘Veilchenblau’ that suggests HP or R. setigera.

Furthermore, I doubt that Schmidt would have been quite so enthusiastic about the novelty of his “blue” rose if had ‘Erinnerung an Brod’ for comparison.

I have seen both ‘Crimson Rambler’ and ‘Veilchenblau’, but they were in different gardens, different situations and different cities. ‘CR’, growing on a mostly shady fence at Santa Clara, was horribly mildewed. I should mention that even ‘New Dawn’ gets mildewed there. ‘Veilchenblau’ at the San Jose Heritage garden was growing in the open air, full sun, and mostly self-supporting. It was healthy and very multiflora-y.

I wonder if anyone else has bothered to raise OP seeds of ‘Crimson Rambler’.

“raise OP seeds of ‘Crimson Rambler’”

May be I will but Crimson Rambler sets few OP hips.

I can only guess that the idea of ‘Erinnerung an Brod’ being the pollen parent of ‘Veilchenblau’ came from the assumption that the “blue” coloring had to come from somewhere. But such color relies on the coordination of pigment (cyanin), co-pigment, pH, and environment.

The puzzle deepens a bit with ‘Diener’s Rose Understock’.

According to the patent application, this variety “originated as the result of a cross between the German rose Veilchenblau—or in English Violet Blue—and a blue sport of the Veilchenblau.”

"The flowers are single, ordinarily having hairs. A reddish-brown color covers not only the peduncles and the spines but portions of the buds as well.

The dominant color of the fresh cut flower is rose red as shown in Plate XII of Ridgeways Color Standards and Nomenclature. The lighter shades are spinel red (Plate XXVI). As the flower ages the purple shades appear as indicated in the illustration which shows a flower cut about three days but kept moist in the interval and freshened by immersion in water. The lighter purples shown are approximately rose purple (Plate XXVI) and the dark shades shown are approximately phlox purple (Plate XI). The five petals constituting the inner whorl each has a white, somewhat irregular stripe running vertically down the petal from top to base.

The hips are large in proportion to the size of the flower, and somewhat globular or bulbous in shape."

It is tempting to assume that this ‘Veilchenblau’ sport was ‘Diener’s Blue’, which is described as being “Mauve or purple blend. Medium, very double, in large clusters bloom form.”

But my point, here, is that a “blue” rose crossed with its “blue” sport can yield a variety with flowers that open red, then “blue” with age.

Does this prove that ‘Veilchenblau’ was not a self-seedling of ‘Crimson Rambler’? Probably not, though it is suggestive.

[We should note that Moore’s little purple variety, ‘Mister "Bluebird’, was raised from self-seeds of ‘Old Blush’.]

As for the hips of ‘Diener’s Rose Understock’ being “large in proportion to the size of the flower”, I immediately thought of the little hips I’ve seen on the Japanese Rosa multiflora. However, Wilson insisted that ‘Crimson Glory’ is a color variant of the Chinese R. multiflora var. cathayensis. I have not seen the hips of this form, so maybe they are larger than those of the Japanese type.

In addition, though the flowers were described as “single”, the application mentions, “The five petals constituting the inner whorl”, which suggests that there were more than five petals in the flower.

Journal of Genetics, 32: 117-170 (1936)
A Biochemical Survey of Factors for Flower Colour
Rose Scott-Montcrieff
p. 127. Complex anthocyanins occur more often in nature than might be supposed from the results of isolation and identification. … The most interesting case recorded is that of the rose “Veilchenblau”, which appeared to develop less blue-red flowers in the very dry 1934 season than normally. The bluer petals were separated and found to contain complex as well as normal 3-5-dimonoside, while the redder petals contained less of the complex pigment. It is possible that acylation is an important stage in pigment metabolism.


By which they meant pelargonidin diglucoside, and the 'complex’ity they refer to we can only guess was really rosacyanin which they could not or did not identify but which is equally likely, or more so, than acylation to be the reason for the blueness they observed.

If someone starting out in this business is looking for a valuable apprenticeship they should consider finding a spot in the genetics labs at Suntory where I have no doubt the details of pigment metabolism are known for certain and they are acting on that knowledge even as we kibitz.

About Crimson Rambler. I had something that Leonie BEll assured me was CR when I moved to KS from PA. My father had it from at least the late 1940s. It got some mildew and BS but not enough to stop it from making half inch thick canes 6-8 ft tall (or more) that either froze back a bit or were pruned, in the PA climate. It was not multiflora floppy. I grew seedlings and kept one that looks a lot like American Pillar. CR was lost to Rose rosette disease in the early 80s. I still have the best seedling which survives neglected under persimmon trees. It propagates very easily and makes a moderate # hips OP. Ploidy- I have no idea. I can send a plant to anyone who would like to try ti find out.

I can send a plant to anyone who would like to try ti find out.

If nobody else speaks up I’m game although will defer readily on account of just how many breeders can a person use, really…

BTW, Silver Sunrise survived the winter outside here much to my surprise. I inadvertently missed putting it in the winter box. It may be lost to neglect, though, as it is on the ‘spray’ list and I have let the garden go without any this season.

Scott-Montcrieff (1936) distinguished dimonosides from biosides. That is to say, one sugar molecule at each of two positions vs. two sugars at one position. She noted that ‘Veilchenblau’ contains cyanidin 3-5-dimonoside. Glucose is not the only sugar found attached to anthocyanins in roses.

I quoted her discussion of ‘Veilchenblau’ only as an example of how environment can influence color of rose flowers.

I think Eugster has something to say about the effect of glycosylation on color to the effect that there are slight shifts though I don’t recall the specifics.

She noted that ‘Veilchenblau’ contains cyanidin 3-5-dimonoside

I’d have to review the literature but I also recall Fukui saying something to the effect that a gallic acid moiety substituted for a hydroxyl on C-4 of cyanidin gives rosacyanin I which has a profound blue shift that is then attenuated by complexing with a fancy tannin compound and further attenuated by a sugar molecule to form rosacyanin II. I could have it backwards or upside down but my point is that Scott-Montcrieff was limited by the technology and state of knowledge at the time so that it would have been impossible to know of the presence of rosacyanins.

I’m not disagreeing with you on the effect of weather, only updating the audience on the fact that there’s more known now about the biochemistry. The discussion of pH in Scott-Montcrieff is relevant to the current situation, actually. Despite having engineered the necessary appartus to produce delphinidin into roses Suntori is only able to produce kinda-sorta-almost blue hues because there is still a bugaboo in controlling vacuolar pH.

Fukui, Y., “Two novel blue pigments with ellagitannin moiety, rosacyanins A1 and A2, isolated from the petals of Rosa hybrida”. Tetrahedron 62 (2006) 9661–9670.

Here’s a link to the paper by Fukui et al.

Osawa, Copigmentation of Anthocyanins (1982), previously discussed the two mystery pigments in ‘Blue Moon’.

Vacuolar pH is definitely a problem. In fact, to get the more extreme pHs it may be necessary to engineer more elaborate versions of the anthocyanins. Consider the blue color of the little day flower, Commelina communis. I was amazed to learn just how complicated a genuine blue color can be. Pigment is an elaborate modification of delphinidin. The co-pigment is a similarly elaborate flavone. Six molecules of pigment form a ring; so do six molecules of the flavone. Four magnesium ions chelate the whole thing.

The ‘Heavenly Blue’ morning glory goes about it in a different way:

Anthocyanin and pH in the color of ‘Heavenly Blue’ morning glory
Sam Asen, Robert N. Stewart, Karl H. Norris
Ornamentals Laboratory, Plant Genetics and Germplasm Institute
Phytochemistry (Impact Factor: 3.35). 12/1977; 16(7):1118-1119.
ABSTRACT The major anthocyanin in blue morning glory flowers, peonidin 3-(dicaffeylsophoroside)- 5-glucoside, is stable in a neutral aqueous solution and is solely responsible for the color of the flowers. Co-ocurring flavonols based on quercetin at the pH’s of epidermal cells have no effect on the color of the anthocyanin. Deep or strong reddish-purple buds change to moderate or light blue open flowers within a 4 hr period, and during this time the pH of epidermal tissue increases from ca 6.5 to 7.5.

Don, Silver Sunrise is as hardy as New Dawn, good to something below 0 F, and with some cover will go 10 F lower. I can’t say what is the limit as we don’t get real cold any more. It does OK without spray. As I mentioned it did well totally unmanaged for years in a community garden. The BS pressure is lower there than in my garden packed with roses. Still, I have sprayed not at all this year and SS is doing fine, despite dropping some leaves to BS. Good vigor.