I do not know where to start on this as it is a bit of a headspin.
I know a lot of people around the world have done a huge amount of work and research into this matter. All this work and research into eliminating or reducing the load numbers of fungus and occurence (PM and BS), for another problem rust. It sort of makes me wonder where you start and stop. Species from the section Cinnamomeae seem to be the main culprit for rust.
I did an advanced search on HMF in the grow section and put in rust, I was totally amazed what came up.
Warren
Have there been issues with hybrids from Carolina or Nitida? I’ve not experienced any issues with the Fedtschenkoana hybrids…yet. That’s one reason I wanted to incorporate the Legacy genes with them as early as possible. Legacy does some amazing things. Who knows whether it’s Carolina or the Moschata and Rugosa (presuming they’re in there, again, who knows?) In one generation, Legacy removed the rust from Playboy, even in areas where Playboy can’t grow because of rust. It has other issues, thin petal substance for one, but whatever the combination of genes that made it, they do some pretty great things. Kim
Kim,
I had ‘Pink Meidiland’ x R. nitida ‘Defender’ and it completely defoliated at times. Unfortunately it had very little BS resistance so it was shovel pruned.
This is a bit of a tangent, but I’ve been thinking differently about breeding for disease resistance in roses in light of the the gene-for-gene model of disease resistance. Basically, what has been found over and over in many different groups of crop plants is that single major genes for disease resistance can be easily overcome by a change in a single gene on the part of the pathogen, while complexes of multiple genes confer a robust, longer-lasting disease resistance.
The problem is, we tend to label varieties as “good parents” if a good proportion of their first generation seedlings are disease resistant, and the only way to really get that is from a single major resistance gene. Resistance from a complex of interacting genes will only show up in a much smaller percentage of seedlings, and perhaps not at all in the first generation.
Case in point, Baby Love. Great black spot resistance, and many highly resistant offspring until the right strain of blackspot comes along when it collapses spectacularly.
I think that to effectively use species in breeding programs we need to move away from using repeated backcrosses to modern roses as a short cut to better form/repeat/colors and stop selecting purely in the first generation.
I feel that I should issue a warning to those considering using species roses in their breeding program. Some/many? species / near species roses have a tendency to spread widely by underground suckers. This property can create problems with your garden labeling system. i.e. is that plant my labeled cross or a sucker from a nearby near species or species?
I don’t know about others using R. nitida in their programs, but I’m finding a lot of disease issues in its hybrids. Anthracnose is common in her near-species hybrids here in Rhode Island, and I have thrown out at least ten Metis open-pollenated seedlings due to major disease issues (deformed leaves, blackspot, anthracnose, etc.) I see disease issues in the species as well. I’m beginning to think there may be other species that would pass on better disease-resistance.
Corylus (R. rugosa x R. nitida or visa-versa - I’ve seen her listed both ways) is very healthy here, but the plant is massive. It suckers so badly that it needed to be removed from where it was and placed in a bed all by herself. Henry is right to watch out for suckering issues in near-species roses. I’ve sometimes controlled this “problem” by putting them in containers.
Andy
Thank you for the reports! Little is listed as being derived from those species and there isn’t any readily available information concerning potential disease issues in their hybrids. I can third the suckering issue! I’ve kept the species I’ve used, and their close hybrids, canned for a very long time. They can easily get loose from roots grown into the ground, too. Kim
I pulled out one waist-high seedling R. clinophylla due to my hatred of its prickly canes flopping every which way in the wind, and hooking into my skin. Now 6 months down the track it has reemerged from underground roots which had remained. However, I am not sure if this species suckers as such.
When I put it down further on the hill where I have to water it from above with a strong stream from the hose, it reemerged from the roots left in the ground. Round Up took care of it. Kim
Howdy all;
Last winter I bought in a stack of species roses from NW/W China(R.davidii,R. willmottiae, R.sweginzowii, R. setipoda, Master Hugh(hybrid Macrophylla) and R. forrestiana. Some of these have been used slightly in breeding programmes and others have not. Comming from area geographically that has the largest diversity of roses occurring on earth, I had this gut feeling that something from this region may give me an edge in disease control, or may not, I will find out as the years unfold.
At the moment I have seedlings of Sympathie X R.forrestina growing, but during their early stages I was worried about some ploidy conflict, they seemed to have sorted themselves out and are growing out well now.
The R. virginiana hybrids will be used in the future with offspring from the above paragraph,as with the China’s and Mutiflora Hybrids I have developed. Talking of Multiflora, I have noticed not many people incorporate Multiflora genes into their breeding, I am aware a lot of you live in zones under 7, but what about those living in zones above that. I have seen alot of multiflora hybrids that are clean as a whistle here. You might have a massive reduction of bloom size but with good breeding skills that can be corrected down the road, and you have healthy plants.
In the HMF thread, I said that I do most of my research for breeding. Looking at photographs of Rose cultivars, Hybrid species cultivars, Tea’s and China’s , grown all over the this world, if any show problems with disease , I do not touch them.
Warren
Many multiflora hybrids as well as multiflora itself, experience extreme mildew and chlorosis here in the desert South West Warren. The Gift mildews terribly here and was terminally chlorotic. Rum 10, Ralph Moore’s thornless multiflora he obtained from his Australian agent, Roy Rumsey, didn’t experience any fungal issues for me, but did have chlorosis issues. Ballerina is terrible here, though Pookah, obviously a strongly multiflora type is spotless with virtually no chlorosis. It resembles a darker version with better growth control of Ballerina.
I’m more inclined to use a found rose we have here, Secret Garden Musk Climber. I don’t need the cold hardiness, and this rose is spotless and ever flowering here. Kim
Link: www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.5674
HMM, We have this Multiflora of an unknown origin here, which a lot of people grow in their gardens, its spring flowering only and is called Cottage Pink and thornless, it is so healthy it almost jumps out of the ground.It is about to flower and I will post a pic for you to see.
What is the PH roughly in California, multiflora plays up here if the PH rises to high. I think some rose cultivars are so highly tuned to specific PH , that even going up 1/2 point or less will show effects. I have had roses which I bred show these signs when young, with other roses around them showing no effects, usually a treatment of Iron Chelates sorts it out, but if it is an on going thing it gets shovelled.
That Secret Musk garden climber is really nice, what size are the blooms?.
Warren
Secret Garden can range between two to three inches depending upon how large and happy the plant is. That scent is extraordinary! I’ve found few hips on mine, but the one planted at a client’s house in the next valley north yielded some on my last visit. I have to get mine into the ground somewhere I can permit it to just grow unfettered so I can play with it.
The pH here varies greatly in the soil and water. I’ve never tested it, but I’ve noticed widely varying chlorosis in the same rose, propagated from the same parent plant in several locations. In the Santa Clarita Valley where the one pictured grows and where I used to garden, the water supply is from local wells. Here in this valley, we have Colorado River Water which is much more alkaline, made even more so by treatment to prevent deterioration of the ancient water infrastructure, which is crumbling beneath us all the time. If I keep them in potting soil in cans, there is much less chlorosis than when planted in the “soil”, a term I use loosely around here. I don’t keep chlorotic seedlings at all. If they’re going to demonstrate it in good soil, what might I expect in this dirt? Kim
Link: www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.156490
From what I can tell multiflora derived seedlings display a wide variance in disease resistance. I have at least one or two seedlings that are excellent, and several times more than that which have problems. I have at least one that displays a VERY strong (and very unique!) multiflora fragrance but also blackspots badly (also has tiny, tiny white, but double, blooms). I am also extremely excited about a multiflora derived seedling (which probably came from Prosperity) that is about to have its first bloom and the bud is showing a butter yellow color (albeit small and rounded)- with a few more buds developing around it. The seedling shows no sign of blackspot but does have a touch of mildew on its latest leaves (which I stressed anyway from not watering… they looked almost dried and withered but perked back up after watering). It seems to be a little more upright and stiff than most multiflora seedlings- already 4’ tall… (I had to go check, it does have prickers but not many… and well spaced out). Anyway, it will be my first yellow multiflora. In a few years time I hope to get some good things from roxburghii (and eventually I’m gong to get a moyesii as well).
This is a picture of the one that has such a strong “musk” fragrance. Supposedly a seedling form ‘Mardi Gras’… (obviously bee pollinated). I guess the spots could be anthracnose…
Jon I have a couple of Multiflora hybrids going at the moment, did a Sympathie X Cottage Pink, one is about to flower and has prickles, the other I think may flower in later years but is thornless. Talking about Moyesii, I thought I would get adventurous and do a Charles Austin X Nevada, I knew I would lose some petal numbers but the result was quite nice. Its very healthy, grows to around 3 ft high, growth is upright and ridgid and repeats well.
Last summer we had an unusually wet summer and I noticed Nevada had a few blackspots it but only in the lower older leaves.
The pic is of the Charles Austin X Nevada
Link: i49.servimg.com/u/f49/15/69/45/38/00510.jpg
Warren,
That is a very nice looking rose. How big are the blooms?
Andy
Thanks Andy, around the same size as Charles Austin, 3-4". Was not sure of the pollen viability of Nevada so I put it on Charles Austin which I use alot , and can be changed to do interesting things. I pollinated only one hip and it stuck. Charles Austin was also used because I knew there would be a large petal number decrease using a single /semidouble.
Just curious, did it pick up any of the fragrance from CA? I’ve been on a fragrance “kick” lately…
I just had a small bloom open on a (Knockout x Oklahoma) x Pink Peace, first year seedling, this morning (which sort of resembles yours…)
Looks like it might be double and it is fragrant (albeit not as disease resistant or vigorous as the mother).
Speaking of disease resistance my best rose to date has to be that KO x OK… only two years old and I can already tell it will be the best seed parent I have to date. This year I put (found)Maggie, Jadis, Madame Isaac Pereire, Pink Peace, & Peace on it and they ALL took. Also, last years seeds had great germination… right now I have ten FAT hips on it! Next spring I hope to work towards some dark reds with it.
http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m85/tncamellia/ko%20x%20ok/?albumview=slideshow
Also I went completely spray free this year AND my roses have to deal with mostly shaded conditions (two or three hours of sun, tops). Just to give an idea… I had two blooms on Chrysler Imperial, one bloom on Oklahoma, one or two on Pink Peace, two on Papa Meilland, NONE on Mr. Lincoln- so it’s definitely doing better than anything else I have. (TBH, I lost about 15 roses this year between going spray free and drought.)
I know how difficult it can be going cold turkey with the chemicals, Jon and I understand how many locations just won’t permit growing roses with out them. I’ve been spray free for many years, being blessed to be ABLE to not spray. What a freeing experience! A whole lot less expensive in money, time, effort and I feel so much better not using them. I shudder thinking of how I’d react to many of them now that I have more miles on me than I did when I sprayed. You really can eliminate diseases from your garden best with a shovel. There have been a number I’ve actually enjoyed watching die from diseases. When you do all you are willing and they don’t “appreciate” it enough to reciprocate, they’re better off gone. So am I. Kim
