Grew it for many years in the front garden in Calgary but it was an up and down BS experience. First few years grew really well to about 4 feet and bloomed well with no BS episodes- could loses up to 40% of the cane in winter. Then in about 2005 it had a massive BS episode and began the decline and rebound cycle. Finally yanked it out two springs ago - base cane was about 1 inch to 1.25 inches in diameter.The bush form had little garden merit. Margit this bush - before pulled - was in front of the very tall lillian you saw in the front garden that I pruned very hard. First photo I believe is spring of 2005 and last is fall … not the BS.
Checked my old planting records (when I kept rigorous ones), this SdO was my first and a pickering planted in the spring of 2003. Therefore in it’s 3rd growing season before it was hit with BS. Lasted 9 years before got rid of it in the spring of 2012 … did not die of freezing or BS just was really sad looking - a failure to thrive from repeated BS bouts that weakened it heading into winter ???
The 2012 termination confirmed by 2011 photo below of bloom in that year … also remember thinking it was the cause of a halo of roses around it having blackspot … or the weather induced a number of them to get it … interesting story to me was the canes were about 3 feet high and I thought the rose had died in the spring of 2011 and that the canes I was seeing were a Geschwind I had been waiting to bloom (frau von thrau or something like that … cane on trellis beside SdO bloom … never did).
Thanks to all for the info. So Riku, you can confirm that SD is quite hardy even in USDA3? Here, I would call a repeat blooming modern hybrid very hardy if it lost only 40% of canes in winter.
hi Jukka
Strictly speaking I am rated as in zone 3a Canada. But unlike others this is a mountains “foothill” area that is in a slight rain shadow - few trees and mainly grassland (dry). It is these climatic characteristics that made me think I was close to Iranian northern climates and therefore perhaps foetida would do well here in summer and winter - was partially right as Persiania Yellow flourishes for me and does not get blackspot while others do get it such as SdO. The area of Finland where I lived as a very very young person (Lahti and Sysma) is more like northern Ontario and I have strong doubts it would survive bs well enough to make it through many winters (more humid than Calgary). However I am big on trying first and reasoning out failures second. By the way I could not make Finnish rhodedrums (spelling incorrect) grow for long in Calgary.
But yes your analogy to moderns and also “morden roses” hardiness performance is exactly right in my book, but ymmv. And I add even the preponderance for some to bs in my yard. It is definitely hardier here than the Norwegian version of Geschwinds Ariana (more commonly known by another name I forget). I have to protect that rose. Good luck.
I love the rich yellow color of ‘Persian Yellow’. Maybe that is a reasonable parent to return to in order to bring in strong yellow and rich warm color to modern roses. I love Larry Davis’ work with Austrian Copper on Carefree Beauty and the incredible warm oranges he has gotten. I tried to gather Persian Yellow pollen and use it on modern healthy shrub roses to try to do this, but didn’t get any successful hybrids. I think there is likely just really low pollen fertility. Persian Yellow is reported as being a tetraploid, but the couple plants I assessed of it are triploid. Since it is difficult to root cuttings from it, I used shoot tips to find mitotic cells to count.
DeVries and Dubois from the Netherlands have a paper where they crossed PY with white hybrid teas and went to generations and demonstrated they could transmit yellow color and also recover repeat bloom in the second generation. When I saw them in Germany this past August at the rose meetings hosted in Hannover by the Debener group, I asked them about these plants. Unfortunately, with budget cutbacks and other priorities, etc. it sounds like they no longer exist…
Has someone successfully used Persian Yellow as a parent and recovered some warm colored, repeat blooming descendants? It would sure be great to develop more rich yellows that can hold their color.
I love the rich yellow color of ‘Persian Yellow’. Maybe that is a reasonable parent to return to in order to bring in strong yellow and rich warm color to modern roses.
David, wouldn’t we still have the same problems of disease susceptibility? I guess I’m asking if you think it is possible to break the disease linkage in the F1 generation?
Hmf lists these F1 descendants of RfP. About half of them are listed as available.
Agnes (rugosa, Saunders, about 1900)
Dr. Harry Upshall
Hazeldean
Hidcote Yellow
I. N. Kicunov
Kilwinning
Lawrence Johnston (climber, Pernet-Ducher, 1905)
Le Rêve
Les Rosati
Madame René Mahaut
Rosa foetida ‘Lawrence Johnston’
Soleil d’Or
Sphinx (hybrid lutea, Geschwind, 1910))
Then there’s also
Star of Persia (R. foetida x Trier)
I have I.N. Kicunov which has not bloomed yet but has been healty (I wonder if it is really the hybrid stated and if my plant is correctly labelled…).
I suppose none of these is a disease prone as SdO but not as intensively colored either.
You do not have to go back that far to R. foetida to obtain that rich colour. Here is a seedling which the pollinator was a Pernetina, bloom is rather loose, with awesome colour saturation and its health is very sound.
Maybe in Oz but probably not here southern New England. I had a couple dozen Soeur Therese seedlings that had spectacular color until it their leaves fell off.
But Don, you are comparing your Soeur Therese seedlings with Soeur Therese seedlings with probably a different other parent. Even with the same other parent one can expect a wide range of disease resistent properties. For me, that is part of both the fun and frustration of rose hybridizing.
So then which other parents would you recommend, Dr. Kuska?
Does anyone have a bonafide Persian Yellow tetraploid available from which to get OP seeds or suckers - or maybe David knows which nursery offers a tetraploid cultivar.
Don, it would appear that another Pernetina would be a safe choice. According to information on Help-Me-Find, the choice of understock may be critical. Pernetiana Roses
Don, If I was still hybridizing, I would probably try R-15 crosses. (How did your seeds of R-15 turn out?)
Warren you say that you don’t need to go back that far to get “rich color”. the rose you present is lovely,but it is not yellow, prior to Sd’O was not ‘foetida’ the yellow to work with. Is it possible that in the past there was something “missed” with ‘foetida’. I acknowledge your knowledge is very superior to mine on this and that is why I ask.
Sure its not yellow , Pernetianas were probably bred from the bicolour sport of R. foetida which gave that rich colour. It is this colour which is sort after.
Pernetianas were partly bred from the bicolour sport of R. foetida and partly from any other forms.
I grow both Lawrence Johnston and Le Rêve these plants are quite tough and color a very saturated yellow. Both if once blooming with short lived foliage are very persistent plants. More than all moderns but a[color=#FF0000] few[/color] recent ones.
Foetida bicolor ifself is steadily colonizing a dry rocky windy lower Provence mountain ridge from an old planting by an abandoned village. The only ornamental persisting there. A remembrance of a time when ordinary nurseries were selling it.
Another fact is that the area where Pernet and other bred pernetianas actually being probably more polluted than it was is now as BS ridden as any.
From the precedent facts I do not think foetida being more guilty. In my opinion BS virulence increase is from inbreeding. That is steady backcrossing to mainstream and the generalization of roses with almost identical genetics that allows appearance of more virulent BS strains.
It is a process often observed as well for animals than for plants.
