My stars completely defoilated for me last year and never leafed back out much. It is a goner now.
Patrick
Simon, this is precisely why I began the thread of a database for us to spread interesting things around and keep track of what is where and who has it. No one of us can take everything in every possible direction. One of your seedlings may just well be what I need for a break through and vice versa. Ralph’s material could go far in others’ hands. Unfortunately, only we can afford the altruism of sending them out without any expectation of financial gain. No institution is going to, they can’t pay for it. Basye wrote in the ARS annual articles he wrote in the 1980’s that The Probable Amphidiploid and what we named Basye’s Legacy, would be available to anyone interested for a modest donation to the library. In all the years they grew there, Clair Martin, Curator of Roses, stated no one inquired about them. TAMU can’t afford to maintain many hundred varieties of roses free. No one can.
The ideal would be to develop something to rival the success of the Knock Out series and find a company who is able and willing to patent them so they bring in the royalties to enable you to “play” creating newer and better product. You can’t seriously breed when your days are spent maintaining production. I’ve heard Joe Winchell made $5,000 on the sale of 30,000 plants of Dolly Parton, by simply signing his name to the contract. Not a bad “wind fall” when you in your seventies as he was at the time. Imagine what that little extra could do to push your “hobby” forward. It isn’t really a “capitalistic view” that inhibits what we would love to see done. The reality is someone has to provide the payroll, pay for the land, water, chemicals then catalog and maintain the information before any material can hope to be sent out. Most of us have a handful of things which we feel fit in that category. TAMU has about 500 varieties, perhaps more, including seedlings which were never distributed.
My hope for all of this IS for us to share this material and maintain it. We can’t really sell it as we didn’t create it, nor do we own whatever intellectual property rights may be seen to exist. Those were given to TAMU, but what is really the value of any of them?
Kathy, My Stars is a nice floribunda, but it was already on the market too long to be patented. It also suffers the “Legacy Curse”, it is so fertile, every flower sets hips. It will continue flowering, but not as profusely. The hips are very decorative, but to sell really well, it needs to require less labor to keep it looking its best. The color turns a bit too cerise, which is not a popular commercial color. It needs to be and remain brighter and more saturated, or to be a lighter shade of pink to sell well. It’s much bigger, but my preference is Gina’s Rose.
So that 30,0000 plants must have been to a large nursery. Is that the typical number of plants in each variety that they propagate? What about a small nursery like Rougue Valley, Mark of Excellence, or Vintage how many plants do they do of a typical variety?
I remember reading years ago that J&P wasn’t interested in selling any rose they couldn’t get rid of over 100,000 a year. But, that was some time ago. Conard Pyle (Star Meilland) introduced Dolly Parton. For someone smaller, the numbers could run from zero to perhaps a couple of dozen plants. Coiner out in Pomona, CA, could probably produce and dump several hundred to several thousand plants of a variety, but as they sell so much to Home Depot, Walmart, Target, Lowe’s, they’d pretty much want tried and true varieties, except for their own odd roses.
Advertising and traffic are what is going to drive sales. No matter how active RVR or Vintage are, they’re never going to be able to reach as many people, nor push as many plants of a single variety as the big box stores will move simply from a heavy weekend of nice weather.
If you seriously want to make some money on your roses, you’d better create something to knock out Knock Out and hype it to the few remaining companies who can pay for it.
I was just interested in the numbers these nurseries carry just because when I heard 30,000 I thought what a large number and the I wondered about the smaller nurseries. As far as creating the next sensational rose that just doesn’t appeal to me. A lot of these roses are the roses that are loved for a season or two and then tossed to the curb if they have not froze out already. After twenty years or so people have trouble identifying these roses even though they were created by the thousands. I rather create something special and unique. Like when Ralph Moore created the miniature moss roses or Jim’s further work with the hulthemias these things will continue to live on. Maybe only ever in smaller numbers but something like Desdon Doll I do not ever see disappearing forever. Their will always be people looking for it to complete their collection. Some rose along this lines would be more satisfying at least to me.
I was actually looking for Dresden Doll and Mood Music. The Comcast company pillaged both of mine… They were like 10 years old from Sequoia. I wanted to breed them with rubiginosa hybrids lol. Now, all Im left with is two Rose Gilardis 
Theyre uber healthy but the color is bland. I could use Scarlet Moss, too, but I hate the plant. It’s so… gaudy lol.
That does sound like an interesting combination Jadea.
I just ant to know if the scent of the moss could change dramatically lol. I also wanted to try it with Rosa primula, but I believe R. primula behaves as the related R. roxburghii does, which tends to create what appears to be doubled up female seedlings instead of normal hybrids. So, that option is out
Jadae what do you mean by double up the female seedling?
This is from cyberrose regarding roxburghii, which I believe acts just like primula does:
"Mr. Tantau also made an attempt to cross hybridize tea roses with Rosa Roxburghii. His hybrid “No. 46534,” for instance, originated from a crossing of ‘Cerise’ with the last mentioned species as male partner. As to the chromosome number, we meet with the same phenomenon as referred to above. ‘Cerise’ possesses 28 somatic chromosomes, Rosa Roxburghii 14, and the hybrid 46534 also 28 instead of the expected 21 chromosomes!
At the present moment I am unable to give a precise answer to the question by what mechanism the increase of the chromo-some number in the hybrids might have been achieved. Three explanations are possible: (1) R. Roxburghii is existing not only in diploid (14) but also in tetraploid (28) races, (2) R. Roxburghii, if diploid, is producing unreduced pollen grains in a rather high amount, (3) the chromosomes of R. Roxburghii are undergoing a supernumerary splitting shortly before or after fertilization. Further investigations will be necessary to elucidate this problem.
I may refer here briefly to a similar cytological phenomenon which was detected in the Lambertiana rose ‘Eva’ by H. D. Wulff and L. Heldt (Zuchter vol. 23, 1953, p. 87-93). ‘Eva’ was produced by Mr. W. Kordes from a cross between the diploid Lambertiana rose ‘Robin Hood’ and the tetraploid hybrid tea rose ‘J. C. Thornton’. It has also not become triploid but is a tetraploid rose like the male parent. A precise explanation for the increase of the chromosome number could not be given in this case either, until now.
There is another remarkable fact to note. Without going into details I may state here that the three roses ‘Floradora’, 'K
Thanks Jadae. The possible situation were almost all the genes are recessive does not sound too bad. In that case you can just back cross and once you get the character to show up at least you know it is set. The other situations either sounds bad or I do not know what to think about them if I were doing these crosses. I will have to go on CybeRose to try o make sense of the ones I do not understand fully.
This is interesting:
"Without going into details I may state here that the three roses ‘Floradora’, 'K
Have not thought of it that way. I was thinking of it as I want a cross between a and b and what I got was just some more of a.
The product is decidedly different from the female (in my own hybrid) but very similar. Vigor is definitely increased. Rooting seems better. Repeat is stronger. The blooms are smaller and in small clusters. The color is near-identicaly but more orange toned (still with tan and gold ones throughout) but the reverse is a stronger coral red tone. It likes to break basals more readily but the canes are shorter. The leaflets are slightly thinner in shape (not density), giving it a more airy feel. In essence, it has become a floribunda. I find it extremely odd. It aborts all of its hips, but I have no tried pollen yet. The majority of F1’s with Floradora are using it as the pollen parent, which I find interesting. Of those crosses, they contain the immortalized ones such as Queen Elizabeth, Heidelberg, Montezuma & 0-47-19.