I was sorting through some of the roses out back, contemplating which to use as parents this year. I’ve used ‘Gina’s Rose’ and liked it, but didn’t realize that I also had ‘Star Dust’ and ‘My Stars’. What are your experiences with these as seed vs. pollen parents, and how were the kids - cleanliness and overall charm? ‘Gina’s Rose’ appears to be the most vigorous of the three.
Jim Sproul
Jim, stay far away from all of Ralph’s Bracteata crosses for breeding. Unless it’s your mission in life to spend the next decade cleaning out the rust from the line, you don’t need getting kissed by them. Choosing any of the Legacy hybrids can provide good babies. Stardust is an OK one. Out of Yesterday is decent as is Out of the Night. They are the cleanest of the smaller ones. Fakir’s Delight is a clean, healthy plant but GINORMOUS. If you want healthy, thornless seedlings, avoid the Bracteatas, period.
Hi Kim,
I’m confused, ‘Star Dust’ is from the Bracteatas from ‘Out of Yesteryear’, but both ‘Gina’s Rose’ and ‘My Stars’ are listed as coming from ‘Basye’s Legacy’???
Do they and offspring get rust badly?
I have ‘Fakir’s Delight’, but think that I may get rid of it unless you all think that I am crazy and should keep it? Definitely not one to use for thornlessness!
Thanks!
Jim Sproul
Jim, the Bracteatas he created which remain clean to fairly clean in the average garden are Out of Yesteryear, Fakir’s Delight, Stardust and Out of the Night. The others rust as badly as Playboy does.
All of the Legacy hybrids are good plants. I’ve not heard of any of them suffering any fungal problems anywhere. Gina’s Rose and My Stars are Legacy hybrids just as are Lynnie, Carlin’s Rhythm and Indian Love Call.
Kim and Jim… you know ‘Softee’ worked really well for me this season… as a pollen parent. Seems to pass on the thornlessness easily too. I’ve got a few thornless seedlings from it this year 
I have used Smooth Buttercup in various crosses and the results have been quite good, the flick at the ends of the petals seems to be a trait which is carried over to the offspring
cheers
My Stars does not rust here. I really like the plant too. And I’ve got one little OP seedling coming up from a stray hip I found. So, I know it sets seed and germinates.
‘My Stars’ shows some of its ‘Playboy’ pedigree by occasionally sporting a bit of rust, but just a wee bit. The plant has many other fine attributes and I would not let a slight inclination to rust stop me from using it. It makes one of the most attractive, rounded, fully leafed shrubs I have ever grown and produces a remarkable bounty of bloom. I think this is one of Ralph’s finest shrub roses of all. It rarely sets seed with foreign pollen, but its pollen works on most anything. I haven’t seen enough seedlings to comment meaningfully on the results…yet.
The Moore Bracteata hybrids are a tricky lot, and yes…the nasty thorns will come back again and again through multiple generations. ‘Out of Yesteryear’ tends to rob crosses of decent color, so beware. If you can get a well-pigmented seedling from it, move to the next generation ASAP. In other words, get away from ‘Out of Yesteryear’ as quick as possible.
‘Sequoia Ruby’ can also be a source of thornlessness when mated with the right thing. Take a look at: '34-06-05' Rose a seedling made using Kim’s ‘Indian Love Call’, another descendant of the Basye thornless group. If anyone wants to pursue thornlessness, I will gladly supply pollen from the above seedling this Spring. “34-06-05” is completely smooth, without even the smallest of prickles on the leaf midrib. It strikes easily and has an attractive, well-articulated structure and is fast to rebloom. You interested, Jim?
Paul
I will definitely use ‘My Stars’ - thanks for the advice!
Several years ago, I made crosses between ‘Scarlet Moss’ and ‘Basye’s Legacy’. I watched several selections for awhile, but over the years let them go. Now, I wish that I would have kept some of them.
Paul, I like the coloring and description of your seedling. I would be very interested in using it on one of my ‘Gina’s Rose’ seedlings. Thank you for the offer!
Jim Sproul
I was quite amazed to hear that playboy had a rust problem, have crossed it with Altissimo giving me the cleanest roses and tuff as well for our ozzie conditions, mind you they not thornless, something inherited from Altissmo.
Well here is something different, a few years ago in the search for mauve old garden type repeat roses, I crossed Duchesse de Montebello with Blue Moon , the reuslts were a low growing plant with lilac white flowers in the old form and completely thornless
cheers warren
I think Davidson used Blue Moon for thornessless.
I was just going down Davidson’s breeding he did use Blue Moon a bit, the beauty of this rose is, its perfume is tranferred to the offspring which is a really nice trait to have and plus they seem to be pretty clean and healthy
cheers Warren
Hi, Warren. Yes Smooth Buttercup does have very special petals. It must get it from Kika. I have never seen a picture of it but it’s other parent does not have ruffled petals. Where did you get Smooth Buttercup?
My favorite thornless parent is Gina’s Rose. I use the pollen from it on most of my roses.
I hope to use Smooth Queen (by Davidson) this year and get some of those ruffles petals on some of my seedlings. I tried to use SQ as a seed parent and not one seed grew. I am going to use it’s pollen and try to get something to grow. SQ has very large flowers and it has better than average resistance to black spot. I like how it is vigorous and the new growth is bronze.
Daniel
A couple of years ago, either HD or Lowe’s had a big shipment of Smooth Buttercup in. They were planted in 1 or 2 gallon pots and looked very healthy. I think they were priced around $23 and though more than I usually pay, I was willing to pay it for the smooth stems and the nice yellow flower. Next to the one in bloom was an equally lovely flower though in white and the foliage was also healthy. I wondered what that variety was and maybe I thought I would buy both for their smooth canes. I looked at the label and it was Smooth Buttercup. I realized the yellow must fade badly in the sun which they were in. They also looked greenhouse grown.
So I bought neither. As much as I dislike prickles, I also dislike fading yellows. To me, Ghislaine de Feligonde would be perfect except for the fading apricot to white of its blooms, even in semishade. I realize lots of people find the clusters of mixed white and apricot attractive but I don’t. If I want white, I’ll buy white.
What are others experiences of Smooth Buttercup regarding fading?
Jim
Howdy Daniel
I bought Smooth Buttercup bare rooted at a retail outlet here in Australia years ago, I think for around $9 Au. I have tried it as a seed parent, but had no luck, hips set and formed, but later dropped of before any of the seed was viable. As a pollen parent, it does well.
Here in Oz SB’s yellow holds pretty well, though it does fade down a bit I have never seen it go to white, the climate here would be similar to Sth Cal. I did a cross with Safrano X Gold Bunny which produced a thornless rose, at the moment I have bred 6 lines of thornless roses, which next year will be crossed over each other to stabilize the thornless trait.
Warren,
That’s great!!! I really prefer the thornless roses to work with. Tired of getting pricked all the time, though the gloves do help. On the Garden Web forum, this topic comes up periodically and many of the experienced rosarians are leaning more and more towards rose bushes with no or few thorns. Several of the women have gotten entrapped, including their hair, while they were pruning. Luckily hubby was nearby to assist them and literally cut them out of the bush.
Jim
Also… Renae was recommended to me a while back. I haven’t tried it yet as my plants are small and haven’t flowered yet but I intend to use it next season if it flowers for me.
I try to select against rabid thorniness, but its definitely not a trait I select against unless I feel it is harmful to someone (like Robusta, among many). I admire those of you that do though. I hope that through time, traits like this diminish through selection. I do know that its a trait that commercial growers select against because it costs both for grafting reasons and for floristry reasons. I thought it was odd that both JP and Weeks used Impatient so much. What an awful rose x_X Orange + floribunda is not elusive at all, lol. I can only assume they were after the archetypal architecture that “sells”.
Simon, can you get Renny there? It’s Renae X Anytime, hence the name. It will show you some of the things possible from it. My Annie Laurie McDowell is completely thornless and is a self of Renae which proves to me the self of Etoile Luisante late stated parentage from Ralph’s aged memory can’t be true. Otherwise, why would ALMcD look SO much like Gloire des Rosomanes and have such a tremendous familial resemblance to Grandmother’s Hat, which I am SURE is related somehow.
You should also really take a look at Robert’s Miracle on the Hudson. 'Miracle on the Hudson' Rose Clean, vigorous, saturated color, thornless…Kim
Hi Kim,
I’ve not seen ‘Renny’ anywhere (but that just means I don’t get out as much as I’d like to 
).
So far, my thornless ‘foundation stock’ I’ve got are ‘Softee’, ‘Renae’, OP ‘Commander Gillet’ seedlings (about 10 yet to flower but which look amazingly healthy), OP ‘Carlin’s Rhythm’ (which are really perking up after a battle with mildew early on), a thornless multiflora (that sets loads of OP hips that germinate easily but which so far has resisted cross pollination with anything) and a few seedlings I’ve raised over the last few years. My little OP ‘Green Ice’ seedling, ‘Rose Tutu’, is thornless but is sterile as a post so far. The ‘Wild Rover’ x ‘Softee’ seedling (pictured below) is thornless so far too and looks like it will have health comparable to ‘Softee’ but standard sized instead of miniature. I bet it will be fertile both ways too. I like the look of ‘Smooth Buttercup’ but I really want to avoid HTs of any description if possible.
