OK laugh @ the outset, but I will still post this question:
What is the best approach to realising the dream of a blue rose …errr by traditional hybridization (not GM).
… and I don’t mean a mauve/lilac/silver/slate grey/violet or whateverrrrr other euphamism is used to call any current rose blue !
I believe it was Nicholas who wrote in A Rose Odyssey (but, this is from memory), the best course to blue is to work with all the old reds which blue badly as they age. Select seedlings which blue quickly and intensely, but get ready for loads of mildew, black spot, weak peduncles and weak plants.
If you open Purple Beauty under flourescent lights, it CAN appear denim blue. Many other roses “blue” as they age. Take a look at how Fragrant Cloud ages. Russets such as Brown Velvet, Jocelyn, Victoriana form a purple “haze” over their surfaces, altering their orange tones to ‘browns’.
IF it was possible to breed a real “blue” rose without GM, don’t you think it would have already been done?
OK… off to next project !
There was an article in the newsletter a while back about color in roses. The article showed that delphi blue was not in roses at all. There is one blue pigment in roses which is actually a darker blue than delphi blue it is found in a few roses mostly lavender or mauve roses. But this pigment is in such low quanities that it might be impossiable to increase it while also decreasing the other pigments that go with it. It might also be linked to other pigments where it would be totally impossable to change the ratio of the pigments.
The idea Kim wrote with using reds has some problems also but is probably the better option. First there is the problems he stated. Secoundly you would need to increase the ph of the petals. This incendently is the same problem their having with the gmo version of the blue rose. Some roses do have a higher ph or increase the ph level in the flowers as they age. But it might still not be enough to change the red color to blue. In this area the best option would be to collect samples of every rose you can get a hold of to test the ph level of the flowers and then the ones with the ph more to where you like it you would cross these to the reds. I forgot if you want more acidic flowers or less acidic. But it is the same thing that makes certain flowers like baclerbuttons look blue. The pigment in these flowers are red without the ph difference.
In the end I think it is possiable to breed the blue rose. But I think it would take a very devoted individual a hundred or more years to do it. None of us have a hundred years left of breeding. No matter how optimistic we are. The gmo people will eventually fix the problems they are having I think. In the meantime I will try to improve mauve or lavender roses and maybe blue will show up, the impossiable dream. I would like to get a hardy healthy repeat blooming mauve rose and hell throw in some moss on top of that. That will be difficult enough.
Aim higher LOL
The pH needs to be more acidic to express the blue.
I think it was Rosa califnornica that expressed an odd pH? I am guessing LeGrice’s aim was blue.
Ohh… I thought the pH had to be more BASIC to get the blue tones, no?
… errr it has been a very long time since chemistry /biochem classes for me, but higher pH = higher towards base not acid.
I can’t point you toward the link, but Calgene inserted the gene but found the pH was too basic for it to express blue. Think about it. You acidify hydrangea to make it blue. “Hydrangea Blue” is an aluminum salt which acidifies the soil. High nitrogen is an acidic food. Camellia-Azalea-Gardenia food is high nitrogen to acidify. Citrus perfers an acidic food. Citrus food is nearly Camellia food, higher in nitrogen than the other two basic guaranteed nutrients.
I am totally confused, I thought their problem was that they could not get the petals to have a high enough pH (=base) to express the blue…
OK I might have stuffed up, I DUNNO !
:O)
Anyways… I am thinking some words JFK utterred in his famous visionary announcement regarding engineering a possible first American manned mission to the moon in the 60’s … years before it was actually done…
err…went somethin’ like (not a direct quote) :
…we do these things because they are not easy…
LOL
BE INSPIRED !!
Approaches to blue can be accomplished in a couple of ways. The first, breeding from varieties that “blue” with age, involves a complex of pigment and co-pigment (especially gallotannin). The other is through AVIs (anthocyanic vacuolar inclusions) that combine cyanin with protein in little purple packets. Because these AVIs persist for a while, they disperse light, thus appearing more blue than the pigment alone. These varieties become more red as they age. ‘Rhapsody in Blue’ is an AVI-type “blue”.
Origin of the Color of Cv. ‘Rhapsody in Blue’ Rose and Some Other So-called “Blue†Roses
If we cross a co-pigment “blue” with an AVI “blue”, the offspring are likely to be dull red, probably tending to blue with age. However, with careful breeding (and looking for the AVIs) among the progeny, it might be possible to breed a rose that starts out AVI-blue, then shifts to co-pigment blue as the AVIs break down and release cyanin into the vacuole.
Also, dilution helps. The first “blue” rose that actually looks blue (without squinting too much) is likely to be pale.
Here’s more info on AVIs:
Karl
I have extremely alkaline soil here, and of all the roses I grow, ‘Veilchenblau’ is the bluest. It is well and truly bluer than any GM rose I’ve seen. So if I were after blue (well, I am…) that’s where I would start.
This may just be my eyes, which are totally weird; but one of the reasons I love ‘La Belle Sultane’ so much is that I see blue in it, in the same way one looks at a mercury vapor lamp and sees green and purple. I have been trying to get a nice flat petal to put under the spectroscope to see if there is an actual blue light coming from it or … ? but so far no luck. I have a hand-held spectroscope and it’s really finicky.
I have also recently seen some decided blueness in R. arkansana, but only on the varieties without spots. As the pink petals fade there is a definite pale blue just… where the edge of the hulthemia-splotch would be if there were one.
Hmmm… and now my brain is full of ideas, and there is far, far too much smoke to go outside and do anything about them.
According to this article about Calgene/Florigene’s attempt to genetically engineer a blue rose, “Blue shades should be achievable if Florigene and Suntory researchers can make the rose’s petals less acidic. Rose petals are moderately acidic, with a pH around 4.5, while carnation petals are less so, with a pH of 5.5.”
If you take a handful of rose petals, and a handful of bachelors button petals and drop several of each into, first, a small cup of vinegar (acidic) and then several of each into a shallow cup of ammonia (alkaline) and let both sets sit an hour or so, you will have a very strong demonstration of the influence of pH on color.
My recollection is that blue is basic (or neutral) with regards to these pigments, and the red is acidic. If you garden organically and chew on some rose petals, you might notice they are a little sour. But Kim is right with regards to hydrangeas, so I admittedly am a little confused. (I wonder if acidic soil creates more alkalinity in the blooms in hydrangeas?)
Karl, I look forward to reading those articles later. Thanks!
Philip,
Aluminum is soluble in acid, so the acidic soil allows the hydrangea to take up aluminum through its roots.
The aluminum then forms a chelate by bonding with delphinidin-3-glucoside on one side and with 5-O-caffeoyl quinic acid or 5-O-p-coumaroyl quinic acid on the other.
The pH of the vacuole can be quite different from that of the rest of the cell sap. In the ‘Heavenly Blue’ morning glory, for example, the vacuolar pH if very high (alkaline). As the flower begins to fade, the vacuoles break down, allowing the contents to leak into the cell. The color shifts towards the red.
The low pH in the vacuole is produced by “proton pump” proteins that move protons (hydrogen ions) into the vacuole.
Karl
Nice to get a bit of hard core science into this conversation … appreciated !!!
I sorta follow most of what’s being referred to, here.
On a more silly note, I decided to not follow thru with my order of Rhapsody In Blue.
I have Blue For You, that should do it for now.
I don’t have Veilchenblau, maybe I should get that.
Oops, sorry about that! I muddled that one, didn’t I? Interesting that acidic pH in petals prevents blue expression, while acidity in the soil is required to create blue in litmus type flowers.
Has anyone else noticed Blue for You, Eyes for You, Pretty Lady and Art Nouveau are difficult to get their pollen to release from the anthers? Many of the other pollen parents I used this year shed pollen like an Arizona dust storm! These, in particular, released NOTHING any time I collected them. Even after grinding in the mortar and pestle, they didn’t respond like the easy shedders. I hope the crosses I attempted with them take. It was quite difficult to tell if what I was applying was actual pollen or just ground material.
We were prolly both partly on the right track LOL
:0)
As far as Eyes For You pollen goes, dried anthers can be stingy with pollen release. To get the most pollen release out of EFY blooms, I leave the flowers to actually open and collect the anthers that morning, from fully opened blooms. That seemed to help me with more pollen release when those anthers dried. I don’t think its pollen is the most potent I have come across either, but its sure good 'nuff with tetraploid seed parents I have used.
Dunno about Blue For You pollen, can’t remember using it that way… maybe I should, actuallyl !!
Thank you George. Blue for You sets a few selfs for me with none germinated from last year’s, so I am reluctant to put a lot of effort in that direction. Eyes for You is too young yet to hope for any hip set. Art Nouveau appears to be very agreeable to setting selfs and appears to have accepted First Impression pollen. Keeping my fingers crossed!