Stripes & Moore's Striped Rugosa

General Discussion
1

I’d very much like to try crossing for the stripe characteristic in roses, but when I study the link below, I’m not sure where to begin. Fourth of July proved a tender climber in my open area so it was removed. There are negative results & remarks towards the use of Ferdinand Pichard. So, does that make minis such as Pinstripe, Stars n’ Stipes & Berries n’ Cream the exclusive choices for one’s breeding program?

What about mini, Roller Coaster? And how about Scentimental, Rockin’ Robin or even the mildew prone VdB, dare I mention, for sharp contrast & bold coloration?

What striped varieties do you feel could take to crossing with hardy species, kordesii hybrid explorers (and maybe Buck) without compromising the resistance for disease?

Incidentally… has anyone tested Moore’s Striped Rugosa in Canada to determine weather it’s truly hardy in our zones 3-5? (and I don’t mean in a sheltered neighborhood setting, but rather out in open space exposed to all infernal elements).

Link: home.insightbb.com/~ebina/RoseBreeding/FerdinandPichard/index.html

2

I’m excited for the suggestions too. I had Ferd. Pich. in the past and in my zone 4 climate it eventually died and was mildew prone too. It didn’t flower too much, but I guess that is typical for many hybrid perpetuals in my climate. I did a chromosome count on Roller Coaster and it was triploid. It seems like a lot of recent striped roses have it as a parent.

David

3

Dee, great question! I’ve ordered Roller Coaster and Stars 'n Stripes hoping that they might be useful. I’m also curious about the suggestions.

David, good to know that Roller Coaster is a triploid, thanks for the info.

Liz

4

David,

Have you heard of the striped mini from John Clements at Heirloom Roses called ‘Grand Old Flag’? I see it is not on his website or on HelpMeFind. Everyone who attended received one plant back several years ago when the Salem Rose Society hosted our district convention. Never tried it in any crosses, but might give it a try this summer. Nice growing plant with lots of red and white blooms. Are most striped roses triploids?

5

That’s a great question John. I was able to just sample an own root plant of Rockin Robin at a local nursery. I wonder if Stars n Stripes and some of the direct offspring of it are triploid? Scentimental and other striped roses were at the nursery too, but they were unfortunately budded. Does ‘Grand Old Flag’ set pretty good op hips?

Sincerely,

David

6

Anyone know anything about Cabana?

7

Im starting to use Shadow Dancer on shrubs. I just bought Mock’n Bird. I have Rose Gilardi, but havent tried it yet. Scentimental works well as a pollen parent.

Also, Moore has a mauve striped mini out this year that looks good. I’d try that or Rose Gilardi over the older striped minis.

Rockin’ Robin, in my guess-timate, probably pases on blackspot really, really bad. To be honest, all of the Roller Coaster relations blackspot here asap.

I have no clue how well Oranges and Lemons works in breeding.

At any rate, I believe that there are ample choices for anyone to work with on stripes. I dont see the point of going back to reinvent the wheel with subpar varieties.

8

Some Fourth of July op seedlings are stripes with good definiton; the seeds germinate like weeds. My guess is that the seedlings will be disease disasters.

9

I never even bothered with Fourth of July for that very reason, Dave.

10

Dee

A couple of years back I was on a striped rose quest and used a number of the roses in question with varing results.

I did a number of crosses using Prairie Princess, Aunt Honey, Mary Rose, Indigo (portland), Tuscany, Honorine de Brabant… I can put up some pics if your’e interested. Here’s some comments on my observations.

Pinstripe: worked fine as a pollen parent I don’t recall using it as a pistillate. It also didn’t like my NH setting and didn’t thrive except in the greenhouse. It died the first winter.

Rose Gilardi: worked well both ways and and has a little better winter hardiness that Pinstripe. It dies to the ground in Z5 but does come back some what.

Mockin Bird: didn’t set hips, didn’t use its pollen, didn’t survive winter.

Oranges and Lemons: didn’t set hips for me and another rose that didn’t like the cold.

Scentimental: Died the first winter.

Hurdy Gurdy: perhaps one of the better stripes for me, worked both ways. I had this one for several years.

Roller Coaster: I have it but never used it, not winter hardy for me.

Ferdinand Pichard: used it as a pollen parent only. It doesn’t like to bloom after dying to the ground every winter.

Nashville: Has better winter hardiness and disease resistance than most however I have not had much luck with it as a parent. I do have a some seedlings (pollen) in the greenhouse from it. I suspect this may be another triploid.

From my observation black spot appears to a problem with many of the stiped roses in commerce along with a dislike for Z5 winters.

In the future I will probably use my own striped seedlings rather than any of the commercial roses.

11

Shadow Dancer is primarily kordesii (Dortmund x Dortmund/striped mini seeding), however, I dont know how well it passes on striping or hardiness. I cant test hardiness below zone 8, obviously. I can only tell if a rose would be considered tender (ie. would likely sulk in anything zone 6 or lower). The good news is, though, that Moore has sucessfully made striped roses from it-- namely ‘Twister’.

Im still waiting on the Carefree Marvel x Shadow Dancer crosses to germinate.

That’s too bad about Mockin Bird. I was looking forward to trying it. But I see no point to use it over Scentimental as a pollen parent.

12

Mary Rose has sported numerous variants of herself including a recent stiped edition.

John Finnegan, it would certainly please me if you wish to post some pics of your seedlings & results.

There is a modern shrub sold by Hortico under the name of

13

I might be a little leery of adding ‘The Nightwatch’. Two out of the four photos on HMF show clear signs of blackspot.

Has anyone worked with ‘George Burns’? I’ve been curious about that one for a little while now. I have heard it has a weakness for blackspot (not sure how bad though).

‘Oranges ‘n’ Lemons’ is another one I have been considering. It has looked quite nice in my mother’s no spray garden for a couple of years now. Might be worth a try.

14

I’ve worked with ‘George Burns’ as a female parent. One year it was a great parent, and I got a few surviving seedlings with once-blooming, species-type parents. I tried the same plant again in 2005, and didn’t have great luck that time, maybe because I made all of the crosses late in the summer. I would have been able to ripen the hips in my greenhouse if they had taken, but they didn’t. Some parents will only set hips well early in the season. ‘Knock Out’ is an example.

Anyway some of the offspring were striped, including 2 from ‘George Burns’ x ‘Alika.’ I now have recurrent, second generation hybrids from them, some striped. Just in the last week, I got first blooms on two small seedlings of:

‘Basye’s Blueberry’ x (‘George Burns’ x ‘Alika’)

I have also gotten reasonable seed-set from Rose Gilardi, but I haven’t actually used it much.

15

Roger, I have found the same thing regarding hip set early in the season. I have had a similar experience with Moonstone. Huge hips from crosses made with the first blooms of the season. However, 4 to 5 weeks later, it is almost impossible to get a hip to set on it.

16

You think you have problems. Try hybridizing were Judy and I live, the desert Southwest.

I am even warmer and drier than Judy is.

17

Robert, I’m sorry about the blistering that you are taking! We are in the 80’s, but not a problem for rose breeding.

I used ‘Roller Coaster’ both ways. It passes along the climbing or taller growth tendancy. It also has very small seeds and hips ripen later than most.

Even though ‘Fourth of July’ seedlings have lots of disease problems, I wouldn’t rule out using it since it sets hips so well and germinates well. It just needs clean variety pollen to put on it. I have to admit though, I haven’t kept any seedlings from it yet.

I think that any of the stripes that are fertile might be worth using as a step closer to your goals. It just might take 3 or 4 generations to get there. Like John Finnegan, I have mainly been using striped seedlings of my own to carry my goals onward. Most of my favorite striped seedlings have ‘Purple Tiger’ in them. It seemed to give bold contrasts. It is not a very vigorous variety and not that cooperative, but it is where most of my striped seedling keepers got their stripes.

I agree with Jadae, that ‘Ferdinand Pichard’ probably doesn’t have as much to offer as the newer striped roses.

Jim Sproul

18

Yikes. I was going to try and acquire Ferd. Pich. for that very purpose.

It seems FP is the origin of 90% of the modern stripes, many of which are pretty week plants IMHO. Some of my sources make FP sound quite healthy, and since many of the other parents underwhelmed me, I was considering reinventing the wheel…

Good to have some first-hand reports on the beast then…

19

Thank you John Finnegan for the pics on your site. I e-mailed you back with a small list requesting reference to a few other crosses that sparked my interest. For some odd reason, however, you may not have received it.

Mini & Patio bred roses by Canadian hybridizer, Brad Jalbert, using Pinstripe and Hurdy Gurdy as pollen parents: Len Gallagher, Nana’s Rose, Pandemonium…

Link: dw1.dns77.com/selectroses/cart/products.cfm?cat=Mini_and_Minifloras_Stripes_and_Weird_roses

20

Pandemonium was actually bred by Sam McGredy IV. I’ve had Pandemonium for several years. It’s one of only a few miniatures I’ve found that has survived and thrived in the deep South (I’ve grown it in both north Alabama and here on the Mississippi Gulf Coast). On the negative side, it’s proved to be almost sterile. It will occasionally set an OP hip with one seed inside, none of which I’ve ever been able to germinate. I used pollen from Scarlet Moss on it last year. That also produced a single hip with one seed, which has not germinated. I also tried it’s pollen on Scarlet Moss last year. One hip was produced with seven seeds, from which I got one germination (prior to stratification, no less). No blooms yet. I intend to try its pollen on Cal Poly this year. I saw Pandemonium described on one web site as “almost a Hybrid Musk”. It’s never been more that a medium sized miniature for me.

Mark

Link: www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=4636