I’m guessing quite a few out here have experimented with striped roses and this may have been addressed before. Any standout seed or pollen parents that have passed along good clean stripes to your seedlings? I’m wanting to try something fun this spring and thought it might be interesting to work with some stripes. Thanks in advance for any advice!
Mr. Moore felt Secret Recipe to be good, hence the name. Rose Gilardi has given some interesting results, though both are mossed and might also transmit that trait. Shadow Dancer resulted in a striking striped climber with Anytime, 281-94-04 '281-94-04' Rose and Twister which also has distinct striping. I think I’d shy away from the mosses in Santa Monica due to the humidity and fogs, but Shadow Dancer is a fun one to play with and includes Dortmund in its lineage.
I haven’t tried breeding for stripes, but Ralph Moore did and wrote about his results.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/Moore/stripes.html
Nearly all his stripes came from 26 Stripe, which is Secret Recipe.
Grimaldi is a relatively healthy striped rose here in GA. It sets hips quite easily. Another Delbard rose, Alfred Sisley, produced some really wild striped seedlings. A friend of mine has a really unique striped seedling from Princess Alexandra of Kent x Citrus Burst.
Kim, has Moore’s Candy Cane been used, and does it have much merit?
Oh, and thanks for making me covet yet another… Shadow Dancer looks very intriguing.
You’re welcome,Philip! Anything for a friend, what are friends for? LOL! BTW, I have Shadow Dancer, directly from Ralph’s hand. I asked to buy it from him from stock which had not been budded commercially. He couldn’t sell it as it was under patent, but he could GIVE one away. No one has done anything with Candy Cane, much to his disappointment. He always said he needed to get around to it, but never did. He thought it held promise, particularly as it is a true bi color, stippled front with solid white reverse. Sadly, I no longer have Candy Cane.
True. But some other breeders made use of ‘Stars ‘n’ Stripes’ (Little Chief x 14 stripe).
McGredy: Pandemonium, Hurdy Gurdy, Roller Coaster, Nickelodeon
Horner: County Girl, Grace Donnelly, Oddball
Dykstra: Freedom’s Ring
That back story is McGredy wanted Pinstripe, which Ralph knew to be a better breeder, but he wasn’t finished with it, so he gave him Stars’n’Stripes. He told McGredy to raise a self to fix the bushy plant type instead of the semi climbing architecture RnS produces. McGredy didn’t. If you’ve noticed, many of the stripes are overly vigorous and tend to want to climb. Oranges and Lemons is very “McGredy-esque” in that regard. In my climate, that creator’s products are often “suitable for pegging”. Use whatever performs well for you, but be aware that the closer to a McGredy product it is, the higher the percentage of semi climbing types you are likely to raise.
Thanks. That’s good to know. ‘Pinstripe’ is one parent of ‘Purple Tiger’, one of my favorite striped roses.
You’re welcome, Karl. Perhaps someone might use the better, newer mauves with Pinstripe to create a good plant under a Purple Tiger type flower?
Karl, I was thinking about PT myself, but I was wondering how difficult it would be to get a purple derivative of Dortmund via Shadow Dancer. I wondered if a compact yellow might constrain it somewhat, and potentially work towards purple potential, in successive generations.’
If so, what class of yellow for the intermediate step? a mini like 1-72-1? Baby Love? A floriferous wichuriana derivative like Limoncello?..
(I don’t even have SD, so why am I going there in my head?)
FYI - I went to the rose auction, held by the Pacific Rose Society, at the LA Arboretum yesterday. Tom Carruth was one of the auctioneers and told me to pick up Rock & Roll, saying he’d had good success with it transferring stripes. I was the lucky bidder and got it (along with far too many other roses!). Will see what I can get from it!
To breed a purple, it is usually best to start with a purple. However, there are at least three classes of purple/mauve in roses.
- Cyanin + co-pigment (gallotannin, apigenin, quercitrin, etc.
- Rosacyanins
- Anthocyanin Vacuolar Inclusions (AVIs)
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/King/RosePigments/RosePigments.html
Some yellow or orange roses of Pernetiana descent have been found to give mauve offspring.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/Legrice/Legrice.html
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/orangeade.html
I have grown Purple Tiger only in a container, and not long enough to find fault with its plant. It seemed OK at the Heritage Garden. Environment no doubt plays an important role in the growth of many varieties. For example, I saw ‘Graham Thomas’ growing in a garden in Eureka, CA. It was a four foot shrub, a little too upright – just as Austin described it. But in San Jose GT was taller, leafier, and not so willing to bloom. When I grew it in Mission Viejo, CA (down south) it erupted like a vigorous Multiflora rambler that was not anxious to rebloom.
John Walden, Keith Zary’s former assistant at J&P Research, visited my garden when PT was a newer plant. I asked him WHY they released such a dawg on the public. He said J&P bought Armstrong solely for their patents. The Armstrong stock was so badly virused, it was burned in the fields. He stated that if I thought PT was so awful (he agreed) now, “you should have seen it before we cleaned it up”. He further stated they had an “improved replacement in the pipeline”. He was referring to Tigress, which was mauvy and striped, but not an “improvement”. 'Tigress ™' Rose
Thanks, Karl. I’ll peruse that in greater depth when I have some time.
Quick question: I don’t know if there would be any merit to doing so, but if one wanted to do at-home paper chromatographs of one’s own roses to understand the pigment composition, what would be the best solvent? Would a good quality watercolor paper, for instance, be adequate? And finally, I’m guessing the relative rf values would not be very consistent from one solvent to another?..
Do you think there would be any merit in hybridizers doing such?
I thought I had recalled researching pedigrees of some of the mauves I liked, and more often than not finding a yellow x pink (or vice versa) in the heritage as a fairly common theme… It would be interesting to see the pigment compositions in my own flowers to see what makes my eye see “purple” in the better mauves…
Kim, ouch…
I’m glad to hear that JP didn’t further the viral issue, but I do wonder about a number of the roses I purchase… I do succumb to the body-bagged, grafted things from time to time, and have no idea if one can even know which vendors are responsible… I noticed that “Paramount” roses here come from multiple processors, depending on the vendor selling them. Who knows who has grown and propagated them?
I have also grown ‘Tigress’. It is not so vividly colored as ‘Purple Tiger’, but at least it has fragrance.
Paper chromatography can be helpful, but some of the co-pigments won’t be visible without some other treatment, such as fuming with ammonia or viewing under a black light.
Years ago I used chloroform or ether, but these are not so easy to get these days. Fuming with ammonia is also useful in identifying potential co-pigments in white roses.
Paramount is (or used to be) an Mea brand, sold mostly at Home Depot. Mea has been around for a long time. It originated up in NJ, if I remember correctly
I’ve not bought any bagged roses lately, but of about 10 I bought back in the early 2000s at K-Mart, only a V for Victory was virused. I’d be willing to buy a rose (bagged or potted) from Mea. If you see a rose from Sexton, another of the East Texas nurseries, don’t buy–just run. Chances are that it’s misnamed and/or virused, and you may never figure out what it is.
Peter