After purchasing Doorenbos Selection several years ago and observing tremendous BS resistance I decided to further investigate the spinosissima family. Happy to report after beginning my traditional Thanksgiving rose seed harvesting season I have what appear to be a number of viable seeds from my crosses with this rose as the pollen parent. Last year I crossed it with the old HT Innocence (supposedly a R. hibernica dirivative) and got 2 seedlings - one very similar to mom and the other non-blooming the first season. This yearâs most intriguing success was with Manhatten Blue - an attempt to get something PURPLE. It produces OP hips and seeds as well. Other spin hybrids produced lots of viable OP hips and seeds. Thanks to the RHA newsletter for an article that showed that others have similar interests.
Stephen
Stephen,
I once used pollen from âDoorenbos Selectionâ on the double-flowered Rosa roxburghii. It took! But I got so excited that I opened the hip too soon, just to see if there were seeds. There were, but they were still green and soft. I never got around to trying the cross again.
Doorenbos also raised âOrmiston Royâ, a yellow Spinosissima (mostly) that reportedly gives some late bloom. It does not bloom in the same fashion as âDoorenbos Selectionâ, though.
I have wondered if âDSâ might be used to breed a red version of âStanwell Perpetualâ.
Karl
Not much takes on my roxburghii normali but I hadnât tried Doorenbos so Iâll have to put it on the agenda. Thanks for that note.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/Sabine_Scotch.html
Sabine (1822) described the origin of the cultivated Scotch roses, starting with one wild specimen that had flowers slightly tinged with red:
âThe first appearance of the Double Scotch Roses was in the nursery of Messrs. DICKSON and BROWN (now DICKSON and TURNBULL) of Perth, between twenty and thirty years since. I am indebted to Mr. ROBERT BROWN, one of the partners of the firm at the above period, for the following account of their origin. In the year 1793, he and his brother transplanted some of the wild Scotch Roses from the Hill of Kinnoul, in the neighbourhood of Perth, into their nursery garden: one of these bore flowers slightly tinged with red, from which a plant was raised, whose flowers exhibited a monstrosity, appearing as if one or two flowers came from one bud, which was a little tinged with red; these produced seed, from whence some semi-double flowering plants were obtained; and by continuing a selection of seed, and thus raising new plants, they in 1802 and 1803, had eight* good double varieties to dispose of; of these they subsequently increased the number, and from the stock in the Perth garden the nurseries both of Scotland and England were first supplied.â
That was a pretty rapid progression. How quickly do Scotch roses bloom from seed?
Sabine continued:
âIn Scotland, Mr. ROBERT AUSTIN, of Glasgow, a corresponding member of the Society (of the firm of AUSTIN and MâASLAN, nurserymen in Glasgow), about fifteen years since obtained the varieties from Perth, and has since cultivated them to a great extent, having now in his collection upwards of one hundred different new and undescribed sorts, some of which, perhaps, when compared with the best now cultivated, may not be deserving of particular notice; but many are of such beauty, and so decidedly distinct, that, when made public, they will greatly increase the catalogue of these ornamental plants.â
This is an illustration of the value of rapid successive sowings. That is, sowing the seeds from the first fruits of each generation. Van Mons (1835) made this one of the basic principles of his system of plant breeding.
It seems that plants raised in this would be more obliging in crosses. That is, a seedling of a seedling of âDoorenbos Selectionâ should be a better breeder than DS itself, even though the grandchild resembles it in every particular.
Karl
While searching for something else today I happened on a couple of interesting articles dealing with the relationships of Rosa roxburghii and R. persica to the other roses.
Journal of Horticultural Science & Biotechnology (2013) 88 (1) 85-92
The diploid origins of allopolyploid rose species studied using single nucleotide polymorphism haplotypes flanking a microsatellite repeat.
J. ZHANG, G.D. ESSELINK, D. CHE, M. FOUGERE-DANEZAN, P. ARENS and M. J. M. SMULDERS
Group III and Group IV haplotypes were found in species from the Section Pimpinellifoliae. Group III haplotypes were present in the tetraploid R. foetida (in various variants, see above) and in R. hemispaerica; while Group IV haplotypes were found in various diploid species from this Section, including R. hugonis, plus diploid R. roxburgii from the sub-genus Platyrhodon. R. roxburgii and R. hugonis were also the most similar species in the most parsimonous tree based on the AFLP data in Koopman et al. (2008). Therefore, our data support the conclusions of these authors and those of several others (Matsumoto et al., 1998:Wu et al., 2001; Wissemann and Ritz, 2005; Bruneau et al., 2007) that R. roxburgii was incorrectly classified into the separate sub-genus, Plathyrodon.
http://210.75.237.14/bitstream/351003/24250/1/2013e0079z.pdf
Koopman et al. (2008) also found that R. foetida and R. persica grouped together.
http://www.amjbot.org/content/95/3/353.full
A cross between Roxburghii and Hugonis would be something to see.
Of the 60-odd cultivars Iâve crossed with and against roxburghii none has been hugonis. Harisonâs Yellow, perhaps the closest to hugonis, failed as did nearly all of the rest. Whether or not roxburghii belongs in a clade of itâs own the fact is that it is genetically almost completely isolated. The same is true for omeiensis, btw, although I am watching a seedling of it from Harisonâs Yellow.
Thank you for the idea, Karl. I have normalis budded from the Sacramento Cemetery plant. I also have my 1-72-1Hugonis seedling which seems to accept pollen from almost anything Iâve put on it and its pollen is quite potent on modern roses and Chinas so far.
Don,
Which pollen parents succeeded?
There are many reasons why crosses fail. William Herbert, Dean of Manchester, reported in 1837 that âconstitutionâ had more to do with the success of a cross than botanical affinity, at least in the genus Crinum. âThe fact being established with respect to one genus, that the species which have most botanical affinity and general likeness, if they delight in a different state of soil or of atmosphere, produce a barren cross, while the most dissimilar, if they possess the same constitutional predilections, give birth to a fertile plant, cannot remain as an isolated circumstance, but must be considered by every unprejudiced and philosophical mind with reference to the whole vegetable creation.â
Herbert recognized two divisions of the genus Crinum. Modern DNA research has three. The point was that two subaquatic (native to wetlands) species from different sections can cross and produce fertile offspring. But a subaquatic species and a xerophytic one of the same section will produce only sterile progeny, if they cross at all.
I should mention, though, that Herbert knew nothing of chromosomes. Some of the Crinums, particularly the xerophytes, are polyploids.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/Herbert/Herbert_Hybrids.html
Karl
When I say succeeded I mean formed an embryo, not whether it germinated and grew up to have more its own embryos. This eliminates most, if not all, environmental factors from the definition. I attribute successful embryo formation largely to some critical level of nucleic acid homology between the gametes of mama and papa which is very proudly dogmatic of me.
These pollens gave embryos with roxburghii although I canât swear to hybridity.
Fashion
Mousseux du Japon
Mr. Lincoln
Castle Bravo.
The pollen of roxburghii gave embryos on the following mothers, again without confirming hybridity.
Condoleeza
Fashion
Francois Juranville
Golden Horizon
Sympathie
For various reasons I have only a couple f1 roxburghii seedlings in the ground, these being from Sympathie and from a proprietary seedling. Keep in mind that my objective with roxburghii has been to test its ability to generate autopolyploids.