Which species have one copy of a true repeat flowering gene?
…Apart from rosa Chinensis of course.
To be more precise, I am asking whether there are species roses other than R. Chinensis, which can pass on one copy of the repeat flower gene via their pollen or egg cells.
Not that I know of, but then as has been discussed, none of us really knows for sure the genetic make up behind any of the roses we humans have identified as, “species”.
Anything is possible.
I had 100 seedlings of R. Fedtschenkoana as pollen parent last year and about 10 were repeat flowering their first year and the rest might have some that repeat flower in their second year, next Spring. R. Fedtschenkoana is a repeat flowering Species.
Patrick
That would explain how the autumn damasks got it. I would think rugosa carries it some also.
Simon,
When you say true repeat bloom, do you just mean juvenile repeat bloom? If so, I don
That’s a great point about juvenile repeat bloom versus more mature repeat bloom. I suspect in the wild juvenile repeat bloom is selected against as it compromizes the survival of an establishing plant. There are genes that supress it until the plant is more mature. I suspect that is why so many of the Explorer roses when used as parents have some supression “problems” because of the rugosa in the background. Rosa arkansana can be added to Paul’s list. Some repeat some and some hybrids can a bit. I suspect if a person really wants juvenile recurrence, the easier way to get it and incorporate good traits from hardy species is to focus on the standard one time bloomers as they haven’t been selected for to have these “minor” genes that supress juvenile recurrence. After going a couple generations one can recover juvenile recurrence and those generally should not have the minor genes/alleles that supress or altering their expression. There of course are exceptions. I like using the hardy species with some repeat bloom too though and have gotten some good offspring out of R. laxa. I think though to maximize strong juvenile recurrence if that is the goal they interfere with that. We can of course always find some exceptional seedlings here and there that are outside the norm.
Sincerely,
David
I would not assume that R. chinensis carries genes for juvenile remontancy. It might, but I have not read or seen evidence that would give me confidence that it does.
I do think it’s a pretty good bet that Rosa moschata abysinnica possesses juvenile remontancy genes. I’d guess that OP seedlings of any moschata species varietal, abysinnica or otherwise (and including brunoni) would be worth checking out for juvenile remontancy.
I suspect if a person really wants juvenile recurrence, the easier way to get it and incorporate good traits from hardy species is to focus on the standard one time bloomers as they haven’t been selected for to have these “minor” genes that supress juvenile recurrence.
I’m using Lynnie OP seedlings for this purpose. With the exception of a few malformed seedlings, all of a couple of dozen of these have been remontant from their first weeks. Baby Love also gives almost all juvenile remontant OP seedlings, and to a lesser extent so does Julia Child (when its seedlings survive germination, which has been a problem).
Based on what David is saying, I wonder if the reason that the first remontant OGRs were not fully remontant is because they were based on the Damasks, which have R.fedtschenkoana in them and inherited the suppressing genes from it.
I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the ancestral form of R.chinensis was a once blooming climber or rambler and it wasn
As some among us experienced from many once blooming species one can get F1 hybrids that do repeat.
Here i.e. rugosa, bracteata, clinophylla do have occasional juvenile repeat bloom, some quite early. An accidental small percent. These seedlings behaviour is not linked to any different further growth nor does it appear heritable.
As long as repeat genes are hypothetical there is another working hypothesis: that there are only supressing genes. Strict ones or more environment dependent to those that only delay first bloom.
Repeat flowering then is end or failure of supressing genes expression. Consistent or accidental.
There is recent research studying the flowering process in roses:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/a2l3m06700561v1t/?p=9e963e17c6324f38ba16c621aed8182c&pi=3
I have the full paper if anyone is interested. It is very technical so it will not be of much use to the general public.
Link: www.springerlink.com/content/a2l3m06700561v1t/?p=9e963e17c6324f38ba16c621aed8182c&pi=3
What a cool paper, Henry! Thanks for passing it on.
I just realized that I addressed my earlier post to Simon instead of to George. My apologies to both of you.
Paul
Paul Geurts, in my initial question to this thread, I was actually just referring to repeat bloom whether it expresses itself in the juvenile or the mature form of the plant.
I can see already from your collective replies that there is more complexity in the mechanics of repeat bloom in rose than my question suggests. Thanks for the information, it is most valuable.
"Simon,
When you say true repeat bloom, do you just mean juvenile repeat bloom? If so, I don
Many (most?) species will deliver a small percentage of remontant offspring when crossed outside their own species group. I have numerous seedlings from a wide variety of species crosses that indicate this. R. clinophylla, R. woodsii, R. rugosa, R. fedtschenkoana, R. wichurana, to name but a few, are capable of producing either juvenile remontants, or plants that eventually develop remontancy as they mature. This can happen any time something is disrupted in the flowering suppression genes, as Pierre indicated.
Thanks Paul. Yes this is the pattern I am picking up from all the discussion here, and it is most encouraging to me. Thanks for sharing your valuable observations here. One day maybe I can do the same for you guys also.
The local variety of R. californica blooms 6 months out of the year. Its seedlings don’t bloom the first year. I have a seedling of Armada X R. californica that produces sporadic flushes all year. That seedling didn’t bloom in its first two years.
Jim, is your hybrid producing hips?