Source for Kika

Does anyone know anything about the rose Kika?

It is breed by Carlos Ortega of CA USA. Harvey Davidson of Orinda CA USA uses it in his breeding of Smooth roses. I have written to Mr. Davidson at his home and no reply. I have written to Mea Nursery in TX USA that may have Mr. Davidson’s roses and no reply. If anyone knows Mr Davidson, maybe I could get his email or address. I may have the wrong one.

This weekend I did find at Lowes, a Smooth rose. I bought Smooth Prince. They may have had more Smooth Touch roses earlier in the season but I think that it is getting late for selling roses in pots. I will have to look earlier next year. There is just no place to get the Smooth Touch roses.


Many of the early Harvey Davidson’s smooth series were found to have ungainly growth habits. Apparently they grow like short climbers with few laterals.

The early one I was looking for is ‘Smooth Sailing’, the seed parent of ‘Smooth Prince’. I saw it for sale years ago and should have snapped it up when I had the chance.

My fascination with smoothness is the reason I never partook in breeding Mosses, not that smoothness doesn’t occasionally occur in Moss bloodlines.

It does, but of course those are exceptions. I hate prickles.

I honestly believe that one day most roses will be smooth.

I’m also interested in Kika… let me know you find a source.

I have, so far, used Smooth Angel but only as a pollen parent. I doesn’t set hips, and pollen is sparse. But I’ve got a lot of germinations from my cross of Queen Elizabeth X Smooth Angel.

Maybe look him up in phone book if he is listed and call or if you want it bad enough go see him. I finally have a seedling of 'R. wichuraiana ‘Thornless’ X My Stars(completely smooth) after trying for two years. Can’t wait til next year for blooms(maybe). If I find it is fertile next year I will gladly disperse it to anyone who wants it, should be very disease resistant.


I’ll get in line for your hybrid Pocajun. That sounds like a fascinating and difficult cross.

I’ll bet Dr. Basye would be impressed and gratified at your accomplishment.


Daniel, have you thought about using the Ralph Moore rose that Patrick mentioned above, ‘My Stars’, or his other repeat blooming thornless rose named, ‘Gina’s Rose’? I have really been impressed by what ‘Gina’s Rose’ can produce.

Robert, I can’t remember if I mentioned this to you or not in the past, but I tried a cross both ways between ‘Scarlet Moss’ and “Bayse’s Thornless” - to see what would win. I ended up with nearly the full spectrum from almost thornless, to quite prickly. I have to agree that fewer prickles is more desirable and will probably be the way of the future.

Jim Sproul

Jim said,

"I tried a cross both ways between ‘Scarlet Moss’ and “Bayse’s Thornless”

Gosh Jim, you were feeling adventurous that day weren’t you??

I’ve been using a Sister seedling to Gina’s Rose Mr. Moore gave me several years ago for some time now.

I’m getting some interesting things from it. I use it because Mr. Moore gave it to me. One some level I believe in destiny.

Had Mr. Moore given me something else that day I would have used it instead.


I have Gina’s rose and Bayses Legacy. Here in Nebraska they both are small shrubs only two feet tall. I am trying to cross them with other hybrid T roses that I have. I like Gina’s Rose but the flowers do not last long enough and do not have any scent. Bayses Legacy has a good scent but they do not last either. My roses are just starting to bloom. Only one seed from Gina’s rose grew for me last winter and it did not survive. I hope for better results this year. I have such a short summer that I think that the hips do not get mature before it is time to pick them.

I want to get Kika because it is a floribunda with flowers that are ruffled. Both Gina’s Rose and Bayses Legacy have flowers in a bunch but they do not open all at the same time like a floribunda. I have never seen a picture of Kika but that is what I think from the roses that came from it.

I will keep trying to find Kika.

Thanks for posting replies.


Daniel, what climate zone are you there? I’ve been curious to know what Basye’s Legacy will tolerate in terms of cold.

It sounds like you’re near it’s Northernmost range. Is it cane hardy?

Legacy can get large in zone 5/6 from reports I’ve received.

Robert, yeah, I suppose that was an odd one! I was curious to find out if there was a clear dominant/recessive trait involved, but it appeared that there wasn’t - probably a dose dependent or polygenic type inheritance on prickles… I think I know what you mean about the effect of Mr. Moore on destiny. He is way more than the “Father of Miniature Roses”. He has planted “seeds” in many of us like a father offering glimpses of his imagination for what “could be”. I went up to visit with him the Saturday before last and made a visit to Burling’s nursery. He is definitely slowing down, but his mind is still there. He seemed slow sometimes in coming up with a particular name of a rose or person, but stayed with the conversation completely.

Daniel, if you are going for thornlessness, any of these roses may be useful despite their faults, though it might take you 2 or 3 generations. Perhaps ‘Gina’s Rose’ would work better as a pollen parent on another rose that ripens faster and has more of the characteristics that you are looking for - just a thought. Best wishes on finding ‘Kika’!

Jim Sproul

Jim said,

“I was curious to find out if there was a clear dominant/recessive trait involved, but it appeared that there wasn’t - probably a dose dependent or polygenic type inheritance on prickles…”

This is what I’ve found as well.

Smoothness is an easy trait to lose. We have to keep reinforcing it genetically.

Fortunately there are enough sources for smoothness to make it a viable goal in my opinion.

It took me while but I have several smooth genetic lines going now.

Getting all the other characteristics we look for in one plant is the challenge.


I am at the top of zone 5. Almost in zone 4. Basye’s Legacy had no die back at all here. I did not even cover it at all. Last year was the first year I had it. David Zlesak sent it to me. It may get bigger in years to come. when David sent it to me it was just a 4" cutting start.

Gina’s Rose is also very hardy. Only the canes that are very new in the fall have tip die back.


Thanks for the advice. I love your roses. I do not know how you have time to grow them being a Dr. and father. My four kids keep me very busy. When using frozen pollen, does the polen have to sit out and warm up before use? My Gina’s rose blooms early and I am saving pollen from it to use on other roses.

I have another thornless rose that I bought at Walmart years ago that was marked General Jack but it was not. It is a yellow rose that turns pink in certain weather conditions. I will post a picture of it when it blooms. Maybe someone can identify it.


Robert, it is interesting that thornlessness or near thornlessness can “show up” almost out of nowhere at times. I think that you are right about the selective breeding.

On one of my nearly thornless ‘Scarlet Moss’ X ‘Bayse’s Thornless’ seedlings I noticed an interesting characteristic. This particular seedling was rather vigorous. As the plant was growing to large for the seedling bench, I decided to hack it back down. What grew back were canes that were moderately covered with thorns (prickles). It was almost as if the severe pruning triggered a defense type mechanism in the seedling to produce more thorns. I have noticed other roses exhibit significant variation in the amount of thorns that are produced on different canes.

Daniel, thank you. I also have four kids that keep my wife and me busy. At times, I have probably not balanced things as well as I could, but I have become much more efficient over the years out of necessity. I think that I am producing more seedlings in about 1/2 the time that I spent on roses 10 years ago. Selecting productive seed parents has been one of my most important modifications. This week I am at a medical conference, so the only rose stuff I am doing is on-line!

Regarding frozen pollen, I have not done it, however, I understand that it should be thawed completely at room temperature before opening the container to minimize condensation on the pollen. My ‘Gina’s Rose’ blooms nearly continuously, so pollen is available when I need it.

Jim Sproul

Jim, the tendency to produce latent prickles is common in descendants of Basye’s Legacy. That’s why I mentioned that we have to keep reinforcing smoothness in descendants.

Unfortunately Legacy rarely carries prolonged smoothness reliably into the third generation without bringing in another source of genetic smoothness.

I’ve done it. It works.

There are other issues with Legacy descendants that have to be overcome.

Robert, what are your other favorite sources of thornlessness?

Jim Sproul

Jim, I would use any source, including the Davidson cultivars.

I’ve been prowling about for smooth roses for years.

One of my best acquisitions was from Kim Rupert. He managed to get a Legacy descendant out of Mr. Moore’s triploid, ‘Softee’.

It breeds like a tetra. The architecture is excellent.

You’ll note among other things there is a nice dose of wichurana in this one.



I think that Mr Davidson’s Smooth roses and Softee are both out of Little Darling. There must be something in Little Darling that will produce smooth roses once in a great while.

Kika is from some Jackson/Perkins rose Moonlight. Jackson/Perkins does not allways tell the parents of their roses.

With more sources of smoothness I hope to have a better chance of getting a good smooth rose.

Daniel, it’s been theorized that the smoothness that comes out of ‘Little Darling’ is due to the influence of ‘Captain Thomas’.

I did this cross just for kicks, it’s smooth and fertile both ways, but better for pollen.



I think you are right. ‘Captain Thomas’ has Hybrid musk in it background which I think is one source of smooth. Another example is Pagoda. It has hybrid musk in it’s background. I do not know why hybrid musk would have smoothness in it’s makeup but it seems to have it at least in these two cases.