Larry Davis was kind enough to share suckers from two clones of R. arkansana with me a few years ago. My first deliberate crosses were made last season, and the first seedlings are germinating this spring. The first to germinate was a cross of Scarlet Moss X R. arkansana. I’ve only had one germination from this cross, so I was pretty excited about this seedling. However, the seedling has already bloomed, so now I’m questioning whether this is in fact a hybrid of R. arkansana. The bloom was close to the color of Scarlet Moss with six petals. The seedling bears no obvious similarities to R. arkansana, but then it doesn’t look like the Scarlet Moss O.P. seedlings I have or the other Scarlet Moss crosses either. Those seedlings are all very upright and rather straggly. This seedling is very low and spreading with foliage much larger than any of the other SM seedlings. I’ve re-read all the posts I can find here about incomplete hybridity and apomixis (sp?) and I confess I’m not bright enough to understand the science. I’m debating whether or not to keep this seedling because room is always an issue for me. Any chance this is an actual cross? I’d appreciate all opinions.
There does seem to be precedent for R. arkansana producing first generation hybrids that don’t resemble the species and are repeat blooming. See: 'Prairie Fire' Rose.
I also have had a number of germinations from a cross of (Suntan Beauty X Abraham Darby) X R. arkansana (the same arkansana clone used with Scarlet Moss). All the seedlings save one have lacked vigor and have not survived. The one exception is already showing a strong resemblance in foliage to R. arkansana at a very small size. The newest foliage had five leaflets (this is only the third or fourth set of leaflets) while the Scarlet Moss seedling, which is much larger, has not produced more than three leaflets yet.
Mark, kudos to you for working to integrate American species roses into the modern gene pool.
Any chance this is an actual cross?
Sure. Although F1 species hybrids generally look more (most) like the species than the modern partner, for some reason Scarlet Moss hybrids usually look like Scarlet Moss. Classical genetics is a pipe dream as far as roses go, any possible percentage composition is possible from either parent.
So, how can you know? Your selection decisions would be a lot easier if you identified specific target traits from both parents. Dominant traits can be selected in generation one, recessives require you to hold onto the putative hybrids long enough to do back-crosses. Ralph Moore wrote "moss factor(s) appear to behave as dominant but may be quantitative in their expression in any given cross ", so you are unfortunately left guessing in this case.
Mark, I assume that the Scarlet Moss is mother. So you have to look for some trait that reminds you of arkansana. Same with your other cross. I’m suspicious of the one on HMF being a self. I don’t believe in much apomixis in roses. That was an interpretive error, in most instances. Only a very few caninae are truly apomictic at quite low frequency. They self-pollinate very early in flower development though. Many years ago I used that same arkansana on something like Carefree Beauty and got stuff too much like arkansana for my tastes at the time. So I discarded all, without waiting the necessary years to see a flower. I have grown more patient over time.
If you have something that blooms, just hope that it keeps blooming. If it makes suckers, you’ll know for sure that it’s from the species.
I have for sure a hybrid of David Z’s pomifera on one of my hybrids. Can tell by leaf shape and fuzziness. Unfortunately no flower yet. It’s only 5 months old. So species do work. Keep up the good work.
Yes, Scarlet Moss is the mother. I’m not sure which of your arkansana this is that I used. At the time you sent the suckers, you said the following: “Wabaunsee had more leaflets, typically 11, compared to the Manhattan which has 9” Both have consistently had between 9-11 leaflets here. I refer to them in my records as R. arkansana LD1 and LD2 to distinguish. LD2 is still potted and I only tried a few crosses with it last year. No germinations from it yet. In addition to the seedlings described above from LD1, I also have an O.P. seedling from LD1 from last year which looks very much like the mother. No blooms there yet.
There is little evidence that the two accessions are actually different, given they were acquired about 30 miles apart. I have them in different parts of the yard too which makes exact comparison impossible. But my impression is that the Wabaunsee tends to be more vigorous. I also think it blooms longer. The original was collected in October when it was in full bloom on the mown verge of a gravel road just north of the interstate (Wabaunsee Rd). So under some conditions it will rebloom. If you pick the flowers regularly it sends additional blooming shoots. I don’t think the Manhattan type would do that though I’ve not really pursued it. The ability to bloom on (relatively) new wood indicates that the flowering locus gene may be different from some that induce an entirely indeterminate stalk. I think this is a selected trait for response to prairie fire. The hot fires regularly burn all the older wood left above ground. So blooming from suckers on what appears to be new wood may be a common trait. But of course in terms of long term survival, just making suckers may be enough.
My experience with R.arkansana and what I’ve read on the forum, is that even though it can repeat bloom on new growth that it’s first generation seedlings rarely if ever have repeat bloom. The other thing is that the seedlings usually are very slow growing and typically don’t bloom until the third or fourth season. Species that can repeat bloom like R.arkansana, R. Rugosa and R.beggeriana usually have non-juvenile repeat bloom, meaning they won’t bloom until the plant has reached a certain stage of maturity.
The leave characteristics from R.arkansana will be quite noticeable in the seedlings as well. The leaves will tend to be smaller and be a dull light green. I’ve attached a photo of an R.arkansana OP plant and one of its offspring. Notice that even in the second-generation plant the R.arkansana leave characteristics are evident
Grow them here. Nearly anything with Arkansana in it is guaranteed to rust in this area. Only “Peppermint” and Morden Blush haven’t among all I’ve ever grown, including plain old Arkansana itself. That one showed me how possible it is to force it to rust through culture, or lack of it. Ironically, Peppermint hasn’t rusted anywhere I’ve had it, yet. I like the stippling you’re getting, Paul. It was my search for that characteristic in Buck’s hybrids that led me to corresponding with Mrs. Ruby Buck and being introduced to Kathy Zuzek. Both very lovely ladies in my experience. I hope Kathy has landed somewhere comfortable and is flourishing there.
Luckily rust isn’t a big problem here, but some years it can be bad. One year I culled 90% of my R.rugosa seedlings because of it. R.arkansana isn’t bulletproof and you have to be careful what you cross it with. It also has a tendency to get powdery mildew and that can get passed on to its offspring as well. Have you made any crosses with Peppermint?
To be honest I haven’t had much luck with this R.arkansana OP plant offspring wise. The Hawkey Belle x Ark-OP is the only one I have from it. Those pictures just happened to be ones I have access to here at work. I have some other seedlings from another R.arkansana OP plant that are going into their third season, so they haven’t bloomed yet and I hope they do this year. It’ll be interesting if any of those have stipling.
I drove into Minneapolis yesterday and I drove right by the plot where Kathy had all her roses when we visited there in 2007. It’s hard to believe that’s been almost 5 years now. From what I could see from the highway they were all gone now. I was thinking what a shame; she had some awesome roses. I may be mistaken but I think she still works for the University, David might know.
You’re welcome, Paul. Yes, that is distressing that so much is lost , so easily and quickly. I’ve spread Peppermint’s pollen on a variety of things, but never with any results. I’d be more interested to see if the stippling would transmit than anything else. The rust issue is great enough to prevent me from exploring too far in that direction. I maintain Peppermint mainly because I like it and because Annie Laurie McDowell brought it home as a gift to me from her summers in Colorado.
I’ve only had one Arkansana result from any cross that showed any real interesting performance, but that one is long gone. I pollinated Lavender Pinocchio (long before I KNEW any better!) with Peppermint and produced this. Lavemint It grew well enough and flowered reliably, but with really odd growth. It died in one of the water wars toward the end of the old garden.
I’d grown a really neat rose from The Study Plot at The Huntington, called Arkansana “Woodrow”, which was also thought to be John Allen at the time, may still be. It’s also long gone, unfortunately, as this was perpetual blooming and rudely healthy in the old Newhall garden. It didn’t sucker much, flowering instead of growing. It was obtained originally from Pickering, if I recall correctly, and very unfortunately, seems to also be extinct. If anyone can find it again, I think it would be well worth playing with. Definitely worth just growing in your garden. The HMF comments state it suckers vigorously, but that wasn’t my experience with it. It’s shown as being grown in a garden, but all efforts to contact them to obtain a piece of it remain ignored. I haven’t pushed further as it isn’t that necessary for my “playing”.
I grow ‘Woodrow’. I’d be happy to send you one next fall.
Also, we may have specimens of all three of the double arkansana at Devonian Garden. They are ‘Woodrow’, ‘J.W. Fargo’ and ‘John Allen’. I am still watching them to determine if they are three different roses or simply mislabeled.
I think Henry Marshall wrote to Peter Harris about his experience with the double arkansana. If I recall correctly, he said ‘Woodrow’ was difficult to work with and he used ‘J.W. Fargo’ instead.
Thanks, Margit, that could be fun. In Newhall, Woodrow flowered most of the summer even on new shoots. It also didn’t experience rust. I don’t know how it would be in this more coastal, a bit less inland valley/mid desert climate, but if it does rebloom, it could be quite pretty being allowed to colonize areas farther down the hill.
If this works, the attached picture is of the seedling in question. The bloom is over two weeks old and has faded considerably. It never did open completely.
In my experience, ‘Scarlet Moss’ self-pollinates early and most of the seeds it produces when other pollens are applied, turn out to be selfs.
I too have worked with a selection of R. arkansana, and although it produces three or four flushes of bloom each growing season, I have yet to obtain a repeat blooming seedling from it; the genes for remontancy in arkansana are not the same as the ones from the China or Damask/Perpetual sections, and so they do not express remontancy since only one copy is present. (This is my opinion, unverified by scientific methods) I expect it may be possible to mate first gen arkansana hybrids and start seeing remontancy in adult, matured individuals, but I haven’t come to a point where I see that happening. Give me another two or three years and we’ll see.
I too have obtained many first generation R. arkansana seedlings that were apallingly weak and unhealthy. Those were culled early and without hesitation. Curiously, these weaklings appeared most in a cross with ‘Tuscany Superb’, a rose I thought might produce outstanding offspring (mathed ploidy, both bulletproof plants, etc) but they were uniformly dreadful. Curiouser and curiouser.
On another note, I have been using a selection of the native R. pisocarpa I chose from a colony near my farm and some of those have been remarkable plants. In fact, about one in ten of these is fully remontant (the other parent being things like ‘Trier’ and other “modern” repeaters) I now have a couple of selections from the ‘Trier’ X pisocarpa cross that bloom with such abandon they put many modern cultivars to shame. They are single pink cluster bloomers, so the bloom itself is unremarkable, but the plant is outstanding. I will find a photo ASAP.
This is the other seedling I mentioned in the original post, (Suntan Beauty X Abraham Darby) x R. arkansana. No doubt that this one is an arkansana hybrid.
On another note, I have been using a selection of the native R. pisocarpa I chose from a colony near my farm and some of those have been remarkable plants. In fact, about one in ten of these is fully remontant (the other parent being things like ‘Trier’ and other “modern” repeaters) I now have a couple of selections from the ‘Trier’ X pisocarpa cross that bloom with such abandon they put many modern cultivars to shame. They are single pink cluster bloomers, so the bloom itself is unremarkable, but the plant is outstanding. I will find a photo ASAP.
Paul,
I’d love to see the pisocarpa seedlings. I have two second-year pisocarpa seedlings from seed you furnished a few years ago. I’d love to see what they might be capable of! I don’t have Trier, but I do have one of its offspring, Plaisanterie. Sounds like a cross I should try.
