Has anyone ever noticed ‘Russelliana’ make anything other than a vegetative centre? Mine never has. It seems to have viable stigma but it has never formed OP hips for me.
Hi Simon,
My Russelliana sometimes produces vegetative centers and sometimes normal centers. I don’t know if this is due to weather conditions or what. Anyway, the normal centers readily form hips whether open-pollinated or from intentional crosses. I have only had this rose for a couple of years, so this is the first year I’ve had seedlings–they are teeny weeny (so far), have Russelliana-type foliage and have not yet bloomed.
I wonder if this is heat related? I’ve only remembered seeing it flower in hot places and always with virtually no reproductive parts.
Thanks Betsy and Kim. I’ve only had mine a few years as well and I was thinking it might have been a maturity thing (though I don’t notice any anthers in photos on HMF either). It got very large very quickly and is tough as old boots here but I can’t remember ever having seen viable anthers and most stigma look ok but it has never formed an OP hip. I guess pollinators just have no reason to visit it because there is no pollen reward and it backs up what Paul said a few years back that rose pollen is quite heavy and so doesn’t carry on the wind much and so relies on insect transfer. It’s in the middle of a few hundred different roses and it’s next to a test bed. I keep umming and ahhing about using it as a Mum but never get around to it. It’s lack of repeat and no history of repeating progeny puts me off (though it really shouldn’t given the number of species crosses I do). I read some people say that ‘Gypsy Boy’ repeats but most say it’s once flowering. 'Russelliana’s flowers are just wonderful though and I really should try and think of how to possibly use it. Any ideas???
I don’t know about Russeliana, but in my garden, adding large amounts of compost, or fertilizing heavily, at the beginning of the season will cause all kinds of things to produce vegetative centers. I added at least half a ton of compost to the garden this year and even got them on ‘Midnight Blue.’ At least two buds of ‘Plots of Spots,’ whose last few buds are always proliferated, gave me three buds per bud, so I had three flowers in succession on a single stem. Amazed everyone.
I think putting yellows on Russelliana would be interesting. Ralph said, (right or wrong), to stabilize mauve, breed it with non fading yellows. If you want a stained result (Angel Farts, Paradise, Stinky Babs, etc.) , use a yellow which stains red. If you want a pure result, use a yellow which shows no color shift. Because of its foliage type, my preference would be to match its texture as much as possible when selecting potential mates. For instance, I have had more foliage issues crossing a matte foliage like Golden Wings with something glossy and vice versa. I often choose mates with a strong bias toward matching foliage type. Not scientific, but using that criteria has given me more seedlings which pleased me than mixing or ignoring foliage types. I also think I would put fertile minis on it, choosing those which perform best in your area, but I cross everything with minis. You can stuff a whole lot more dwarf plants in a space than you can rampant climbers.
Fara, How much is half a ton in compost pick-up wise? The reason I ask is a mid 1700 farmer left a how to on produce farming and used 54 tons of cow and horse dung/ acre which I thought must be knee deep.
Neil
Stout (1922) observed similar proliferations in Brassicas.
"In a few plants of several strains of both Brassica chinensis and B. pekinensis, noticeable axial proliferations develop. The axis anlage inclosed within the carpels of the pistil grows and branches until it bursts open the pistil. The pedicel of the flower enlarges; the proliferated branch may become several inches long and bear as many as twenty-five flowers, many of which are able to function in seed production. Proliferation may be regarded as the sterilization of a pistil by vegetative growth of the tissue beneath and within it. In the end it is the expression of a tendency to vegetative vigor which culminates in the production of many more pistils and stamens.
“Although proliferation is often irregular in its distribution, it is most frequent during the earlier portion of the period of bloom. Frequently it is most highly developed in the first flowers of plants which show little or no flower abortion, but it often does appear later. The last flowers of those which open normally as a rule are free from proliferations. This abnormality is certainly to be regarded as an expression of excess vegetative vigor, as a result of which the axis about which flower parts are grouped resumes active vegetative growth. The stamens in many of the flowers whose axes proliferate seem to be normal, but the pistils are not productive of fruit.”
I read somewhere of another rose (once bloomer) that produced green “eyes”. The recommendation was to starve the plant a little to restrict its growth and encourage better blooms.
Karl
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Neil, 54 tons/acre isn’t even boot sole deep. At 44,000 sq ft/A and 2000 lb/ton we have about 2.5 lb/sq ft. If the density of dung is 1, the same as water, 8 lb/ sq ft would be 1.5 inches deep. So we’d have about 3/8 inch layer on average. For maize sometimes 100 tons/A/yr is used. Also it depends whether wet or dry material is being used.
I just did a test with some composted cattle dung and grew tomatoes in 10% by volume in a relatively low fertility soil. Tehy looked great. AT 30 % they were very dark green and maybe it was a bit too much.
If I remember right gasoline is 8lbs/gal., 60lbs/ft cubed.
Anyway I tried 60% compost to 40% dirt and know more dirt will be better for the seedlings. I don’t want the best seedling mix but something approaching the average flower bed. Neil
Ok, 3/8 inch after steped on.
Neil
Trying to keep on track a bit…
Kim… I’ve decided on a path to try with this one… I’m going to try it with ‘Dresden Doll’ pollen on it to see if mossed repeating shrubs can be made and along the way maybe a mossed climber or two as well. I do like the idea of putting yellow with it though I’ll need to think about that one a bit as I don’t have many/any good yellows. If the OP 1-72-1 seeds you sent me come up maybe they’d be candidates? I have ‘Rise n Shine’ but its not a very reliable ‘doer’ here.
Karl and Fara, the nutrient thing might be the key here. It’s in very fertile deep red soil, thickly mulched with pea-straw. It seems to flower at about the same time as its growth is peaking so its vigour is also at its peak. The later flowers seem to be the ones that sometimes form what looks like receptive stigma. This pattern, however, doesn’t seem to follow suit with some of the other roses around here. ‘Green Ice’ periodically forms OP hips here but only when the weather is really hot and the petal count is reduced. At other times it forms vegetative centres too. My own seedling from it, ‘Rose Tutu’, is a miniature groundcover that I wouldn’t describe as overly vigorous yet its centres are also vegetative and last summer I discovered a bud forming in the centre of one of its flowers.
I remember someone once saying (on here) that they had managed to get a hip to form on ‘Madam Hardy’ too.
I’d like to know more about a hip on ‘Mme Hardy’, and seedlings if any.
The rose in commerce as ‘Climbing Sombreuil’ is not, and some have claimed that it is ‘Colonial White’. There are specimens of both at the Heritage Rose Garden (San Jose) that are as close to identical as my eyes can determine. CW is supposed to be New Dawn x Mme Hardy. The ‘New Dawn’ ancestry is easy to see and smell. Only the foliage hints vaguely at some other pollen parent.
Has anyone seen pollen on ‘Mme Hardy’?
Karl
It’s too bad you can’t get Red Moss Rambler there, Simon. I’ve always thought something interesting should be able to be massaged from it.
Karl, here is one link from quite recently regarding 'Madame Hardy’s hip-setting: http://www.rosebreeders.org/forum/read.php?2,44573,44573#msg-44573
I haven’t found the other link yet. It was 5-6 years ago that I read it. Seems that ‘Mme Hardy’ suffers from phantom pregnancies.