Roseraie de l’Hay occasionally sets seeds for me. Granted the seeds are OP but they consistentaly have reddish canes. I doubt those would come from a sport of R. rugosa rubra, which is how I’ve always seen it described. Has anyone come across other suggested ancestory? Has anyone else had the same red-caned seedlings?
Id guess at one of the zillions of the red/mauve toned OGRs. Ive always wondered what the other half of Rugosa Magnifica was.
What are your OP seeding like in terms of rebloom? That might help narrow down the field a bit.
I never gotten any seedlings from RdH…
Although with luck, I may have gotten a tetraploid cultivar that rooted last year and is finally looking like it will grow canes this year.
I looked at the breeders HMF list and it seems he liked to use a lot of red HP’s in his work.
Hi Enrique,
Did you try to chromosome double RdH? Is that what you are referring to with potentially getting a tetraploid cultivar? RdH is triploid from my understanding- reading in the literature and finding very low pollen viability myself. Perhaps you have a hexaploid.
When working with diploid rugosas and also many triploid hybrids too one should consider that at least at the 2x level, rugosas are highly self-incompatible. Therefore, viable seeds are primarily from the result of crosses with neighboring roses. In the past people have wrote that their Hansa seedlings look very non-rugose and assumed that Hansa is not a straight rugosa hybrid. Understanding that most all their seedlings are crosses of Hansa x ??? nearby is the probable reason for the diversity they are seeing, especially if Hansa is their only rugosa and all crosses are outcrosses with non-rugosa types. Do you have any red caned rose(s) near your RdH Kevin?
Sincerely,
David
Oh, I made a mistake, Enrique, I was thinking about Rose a Parfum de L’Hay (triploid). Roseraie de L’Hay is listed as a diploid. That would strengthen the probability of a strong self-incompatibility system and the seedlings that you obtained Kevin probably being the result of outcrosses.
Sincerely,
David
David,
I’m interested that you write that most rugosas are highly self-incompatible. I remember reading somewhere (this forum, perhaps?) quite the opposite – that you had to be extra careful to emmasculate rugosas very early as they tend to shed their pollen before the flower opens fully and self-pollinate very easily. I agree, however, that OP rugosa seedlings seem to show a surprisingly high variation, which indicates that they are indeed fairly self-incompatible. Anyone else with comments or references on the subject?
Joseph
Oh yes…
I’ve assumed that RdPH was a triploid.
Hopefully my rose is a seedling. It’s leaves do look squat, but sometimes it will look perfectly normal. Took quite some time for that treated bud to grow (just 6 inches) and it’s taking for for it to build up from it’s own roots.
I have high hopes for this–
Perhaps one day, when it’s older and bigger, you could make a chromosome count (I’ll pay expenses, of course…) Just to make sure it’s a tetraploid…
In 1986 P. Cole and B. Melton published a paper which investigated the ability of rose pollen to fertilize flowers on the same bush. The diploid species were all highly self-sterile. None of the 23 diploid specimens exhibited over 4 % fertility and 18 of the 23 produced no self-set seed. They also studied the fertility with pollen from another plant of the same species and found that the diploid group was 50 times more cross-compatible than self-compatible. For roses of higher polyploid level 12 of the 16 studied were no more self-compatible than the diploid group.
A very recent paper by Han YounYol and Yu SunNam, did confirm that R. Rugosa was self-sterile.
Title: Self- and Cross-compatibility Relationships among Genotypes and between Ploidy of the
Rose
Published in: J. AMER. SOC. HORT. SCI., volumn 111, pages 122-125, (1986).
Authors: Patricia Cole (l) and Bill Melton (2)
Authors affiliation: New Mexico State University, Las Cruces, NM 88003 1) Former Graduate Student, Dept. of Hort. 2) Professor. Dept. of Crop and Soil Sci.
Abstract. "The breeding of hybrid rose cultivars is part of the ornamental rose industry, but there have been few studies concerned with the factors limiting reproduction in the genus Rosa L. In this study, 28 species of Rosa were examined under field conditions for self- and cross-compatibility relationships. Twenty-five specimens of 25 species were tested for self-compatibility. All of the 23 diploid plants listed exhibited more than 96%. Twelve of the 16 polyploid plants preserved the 96%
self-incompatibility reaction. A distinct separation existed between self-compatible and self-incompatible polyploid plants. Four of the 5 diploid cross-fertilizations produced unexpected reciprocal differences.
Significant reciprocal differences were not obtained from the polyploid level cross-fertilizations. Some parthenocarpy occurred in the R. stellata species. Pollen viability and abundance, daily maximum and minimum temperature, and maximum and minimum relative humidity were not correlated with the compatibility reactions."
Thanks Henry for highlighting the references. There is also one I came across in Acta Hort. I believe that looks specifically at R. rugosa and many individuals. Joseph, perhaps what you are referring to is the fact that rugosas shed their pollen before the flower opens and they self-pollinate themselves. Although this happens, the pollen tubes do not grow very fast and often burst on the way down the style and a compatible pollen source will outgrow the tubes from self-pollination. Periodically if the weather is hot or other environmental circumstances occur some self-pollen can reach the egg and participate in fertilization. Some specific genotypes are more amenable to this than others. For instance, I have a group of polyanthas and have found this when they are growing in a hot greenhouse. Under normal conditions and no insects- no hips. Under hot conditions and no insects some abundantly produce hips (less seeds per hip than in crosses usually) and some still don’t. With controlled pollinations all produce abundant seed.
Sincerely,
David
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Title: Difference of intra- and interspecific cross-compatibility of fertilization in several genus Rosa
Authors: Han, Youn Yol; Yu, Sun-Nam
Authors affiliation: Address Gumi Floricultural Experiment Station, Gyeongbuk Provincial A.T.A., Gumi, 730-830, South Korea.
Published in: Journal of the Korean Society for Horticultural Science, volumn 43, pages 326-332, (June 2002).
Abstract: " For rose breeding work, 5 cultivars of 3 naturally grown Rosa spp. and 68 rose cultivars were examined. The characteristics of flower organ, pollen germination, self-fertilization of parent plants and crossability were studied. Crosses of wild plants of Rosa spp., R. multiflora and R. wichuraiana were self-fertilized. Although R. rugosa Thunb. showed pollen germination in the stylar tissue, it failed to reach self-fertilization. Crosses among wild species, 5 combinations of reciprocal crossing with R. multiflora and R. wichuraiana showed affinity, but 7 combinations of reciprocal crossing with R. rugosa and the other native species showed little affinity and low fertilization. Of the 37 cultivars, 24 including ‘Mount Shasta’ were self-fertilized. However, 13 cultivars including ‘Cannes Festival’ were unable to reach self-fertilization. The rates of pollen germination, the self-fertilization, and the number of seeds per hip were very different among cultivars. The results of reciprocal crossings among diploid wild species of Rosa spp. and tetraploid rose cultivars when tetraploid cultivars were used as pollen parents, the hip size was bigger and the number of seeds per hip were higher than when diploid wild species were pollen parents. On the other hand, self-fertilization and crossability of 357 combinations of cultivars were investigated. The rate of fertilization was in the order of Spray type, Climber type and Hybrid Tea. Floribunda type showed lowest fertilization. When the cultivars with big flower was used as pollen parents, the hip size was big and the number of seeds per hip was numerous."
Does a sport have the same ploidy number as its parent plant? Since R. rugosa Rubra is diploid and sets abundant seed, I’ve assumed that RdH is a triploid OP hybrid (despite everything I’ve read) since it’s nearly sterile. Would a sport behave differently than its parent in terms of seed production? David, I do have R. glauca, but the canes of these seedlings are reddish, similar to R. woodsii, rather than purple and the foliage shows no sign of R. glauca. But if that’s the cross that has occured, these seedlings should be triploid, right? Unfortunately, none of the plants have bloomed, yet. RdH usually sets one hip with very few seeds each year and I started germinating those just two years ago. I assume I’ll see a bloom this year.
I dont think the breeder had access to those species. He may have but the likelyhood would have been minor since this was the 1800’s and in France. Texts say he usually used “Kamschatika Alba Simpex” in his hybrid rugosas. Here is an example of his breeding work:
Kevin,
If I’m following this right you have OP seedlings from Roseraie de l’Hay (which David is saying is listed as a diploid). You have R.glauca, which could be the pollen parent of the seedlings. If this would be the case, it would make the seedlings diploid also. R. glauca contributes 21 chromosome (3 sets) as a seed parent and 7 chromosomes (1 set) as a pollen parent. If the cross were done the other way around, the seedlings would be tetraploid. As for red rather than purple canes and the foliage not resembling glauca, I wouldn’t necessarily use those to rule out glauca as the pollen parent. I have F1, from R.rugosa X R.glauca and they have red/purple tinted canes and foliage that I wouldn’t say is very “glauca-like” other than in having the waxy bluish surface. If I saw them and didn’t know the parentage, the rugosa is obvious but I don’t know if I’d have known what rose provided the other traits. By the way, these F1 are reduced in fertility, but fertile enough to produce a hip from every flower. However, the hips end up having many aborted seeds. Last season, I did a bunch of backcross (rugosa pollen). I’m hoping to regain rebloom, and maintain the really cool “blue spruce” foliage color. Let us know how your seedlings progress, and what you decide about their parentage.
Since you mentioned it, do you have R. woodsii growing, too? I imagine that is another avenue of possibility as a pollen parent to your OP seedlings.
I don’t have a RdH, but for those who do, if you have a lot of rugosas nearby it is there pretty good seed set on it? For instance, at my grandparents I had a R. rugosa rubra- just one. It didn’t set many hips and seeds per hip were variable, but low. When I raised those seeds they were odd and seemed pretty likely that they were crosses with the nearby gallica and R.multiflora plants. However, the plant of R. r r I had at home from a sucker of this one surrounded with lots of nearby rugosas set abundant hips very full of seed. I ask this because I am wondering if RdH is just normally more sterile, or if the low seed set may be due to the available dads. Do you have R.rugosa rubra or other rugosas nearby Kevin? I suspect that rugosa x rugosa crosses tend to be much more fertile and set better seed than rugosa x non-rugosa crosses. I have had exceptional seed set, however, from controlled pollinations of rugosa x polyanthas and other males though.
That’s a great question about a sport Kevin. A sport just means there is some change that makes the sport reliably different from the original clone, but it doesn’t state the reason. Usually it seems to be due to some alteration in a single gene, but whole ploidy changes definately would allow for a different appearance as well.
Sincerely,
David
Saw a book today at the OSU library that stated this rose as a sport of an unknown hybrid rugosa.
My possible tetraploid has put some hips with pollen of Rugelda…
3 pollinations, 2 hips–
And my plant has finally started to make new canes.
Wow–
1 hip matured. I picked it by mid September, and I’ve already got one very quick germination.
This is the first time Rdl’H has given me a germination… I’ve collect OP hips before.
This is going to be a VERY interesting cross, and I can’t believe I was able to get at least the success of germination so quickly.