Crap shoot is a very applicable term in creating new hybrid roses. One of the crosses I made last year created some of the most diverse roses imaginable. The cross was ‘Chihuly’ x ‘Yellow Brick Road.’ I made the cross on a whim and only “because they were there.” I wasn’t done crossing roses at the time, and I expected something along the lines of a yellow/apricot colored shrub rose with photo-tropic tendencies. I used ‘Yellow Brick Road’ to hopefully strengthen ‘Chihuly’s’ disease-issues. I would have never even thought of using ‘Chihuly’ as a seed parent before I made the cross, and have since lost it over the winter. I felt no remorse about losing this “inferior” rose. Since many of the seedlings I germinated this spring have bloomed, I have since reconsidered this, and am looking to grow the rose again and using it as a seed parent.
The seedlings I got ranged from a pink hybrid-tea type, to a yellow semi-double that curls its petals and is really ugly, to a pink/white “Engish”-style rose, to a nice-looking yellow double, to a white double rose that kind of reminds me of The Nun only flatter. I’ll post some of the pictures, so everyone can see them.
These are a couple of other ones. I really like the “English”-style one. I received similar diversity when I crossed ‘First Impression’ x ‘Abigail Adams Rose.’
The English style pastel apricot is lovely indeed. With any health that will develop into quite a nice looking shrub. The pink tea looks pretty good also. Hope it has some fragrance to go with those looks.
Right on! Mitchie and I had a similar experience when she crossed ‘Pristine’ x ‘City of London’. Every seedling ( I believe there were seven that survived) from the one hip were all of a different color and class. Someone asked me at a program on hybridizing we did later (with photos of the seven), how could they be so different all from the same hip? I asked how many children he had, and he said five, so I asked him if they were all the same? He said no, there were boys and girls, redheads, black and brown hair, light and darker complection, etc. I said, “You just answered your own question”. We have had many of the same experiences since, the latest being ‘Love and Peace’ x ‘Blue Peter’, with six seedlings all of a different color and shape. The mystery of hybridizing and the FUN continues!
The numbers that have been shared on this thread reflect the range of seedlings that initially are kept depending on the cross in my own experience. Some crosses are very good, and provide many good seedlings to select. Other hoped for crosses produce nothing but culls. It is by trial and error that we can learn where to focus our energy. I think that a big part of a breeding program should be “probing” for the good crosses. The other part of the breeding program should be capitalizing on what you have learned and repeating to a larger extent the better “probing crosses” from years past.
One of my best crosses from a few years ago was using the seed parent of ‘Thrive!’ crossed with ‘Julia Child’. I did that cross 6 years ago and still have several of those seedlings surviving in my backyard. Last year I decided to repeat that cross with a twist. Instead of using ‘Julia Child’, I used ‘First Impression’ because of its better disease resistance in our climate. From 1,075 seeds, there were only about 200 seedlings (germination this year wasn’t as good as usual with that seed parent). However, I still have more than 20 seedlings that I am probably going to keep for further evaluation. From that many seedlings, my average to keep in the first year would normally be closer to 5.
Depending on the year, I’ll keep 2-3% in the first year. The second year, I’ll throw out about 1/2 of those remaining, and the third year another 1/2 of the survivors are let go. These are estimations. In the end, many good roses are thrown out or given away because they lack uniqueness or are not good enough to use in further breeding.
On average, I think 1/100 roses is a good rose and between 1/1,000 and 1/10,000 is an excellent rose and could be introduced.
Some more data on successes. A lot depends on which parents.
American Rose Annual 71-15 (1969)
PAST ACCOMPLISHMENTS AND FUTURE TASKS OF ROSE BREEDERS
Walter E. Lammerts
“In a relatively small population of ‘Soeur Therese’ X ‘Crimson Glory,’ a most unusual seedling with spectrum to cerise red petals and a very long bud was found. This seedling was introduced as ‘Charlotte Armstrong’ in 1940 by the Armstrong Nurseries.”
“In 1946, when at Rancho Del Descanso (now Descanso Gardens), I crossed ‘Charlotte Armstrong’ with ‘Floradora’ and grew a population of 81 plants, from which ‘Queen Elizabeth’ was selected in 1948. My main reason for making this cross was the hope of combining the unusual cinnabar red color of ‘Floradora’ with the long bud and large flower of ‘Charlotte Armstrong.’ Naturally, I also hoped that the Hybrid Tea habit would prove dominant and be expressed in some of the seedlings. Instead, as you all know, we obtained a plant so vigorous and unusual in flowering habit that a new class had to be created for it, the Grandiflora, so named because it has a “grand” habit of growth and is very floriferous.”
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Swim & Weeks raised both ‘Mister Lincoln’ and ‘Oklahoma’ from Chrysler Imperial x Charles Mallerin. As I recall, the seeds for the two came from the same hip. Alain Meilland made the same cross and raised ‘Papa Meilland’. I don’t know how many seedlings he raised, but it’s pretty clear that the cross is a good one.
J&P made the fatal mistake of assuming “cookie cuttter” Hybrid Teas would be a product they could (and would) market forever. I’m sure it came as a shock to realize these types had become garden pariahs in the eyes of many. Even some of the “best”, most disease resistant moderns still have serious health issues in a chemical-free garden: you should see what an ugly, leafless mess my ‘Hot Cocoa’ is right now! And we wonder why the public has the perception that roses are the wheezing, inbred, sick royalty they have come to think they are.
As for the discard rate: yes…I used to discard (eventually) 99.5% of all that I produced. But that was when I relied heavily on Austins, miniatures and other modern pedigrees for my breeding. Now, my last two years worth of seedlings are based on species (pisocarpa and foliolosa are two standouts for me), Kim’s Orangeade X fedtschenkoana hybrid, or kordesii derivations. Some crosses from William Baffin and L83 have a 75% survival rate in testing so far. That is unprecendented in the 15 years I have worked with the genus. Some of these plants are virtually indestructible; neighboring plants rain down Blackspot spores on them and they don’t even blink.
The difference in overall health and vigor of the breeding lines that do NOT rely heavily on modern HT/Floribunda pedigree is shocking when compared to crosses using HT/Floribunda genes. Being able to make this comparison has illustrated to me just how chronically inbred our modern hybrids are, and how useless they are likely to be if improvement in health is your goal. Yes, I feel very strongly about this, and the data supports my thinking.
I’m glad the Oadefed has assisted you in your health pursuit, Paul. You honestly do need to use the DLFED line as it contains Legacy, which helps moderate the Orangeade genes. Flower colors are intensified; petal substance is improved; flowering season is longer; hip set and fertility is greatly improved; flowers are larger and foliage pigmentation and durability are vastly improved over the Orangeade seedlings. Suckers of several are yours for the asking.