Rose Name Guesses to Informed Opinions Welcomed

[RikuHelin]

Again this year l have come across a rose l do not recall acquiring, donated, or breeding due to bush form/habit/leaf color and bloom type/ color/form.

I think its a near or F1 / species that appears is hardy and with a floret white bloom double form.

It’s 3-4 feet high so far - yup l missed it until it bloomed - not after, easy to see why. I plant very close so to attract my eye the rose has to distinguish itself from the maddening crowd (aka WT fuss is this?).

Striking features, bloom florets, white, small double blooms (~20 petals 1 3/4 inches).

Surprise to me its leaves have weak glaucous color. Or alba if you prefer. Not Loius Riel or R glauca / rubrifolia.

Main crown sections have low density, weak covering of spino like prickles at base of canes (crown area), upper canes prickles at base of leaf cane node, and at mid point (aka low density). Fresh prickles red colored.

No idea if recurrent as first year l have seen it bloom in an area where l label all my roses (no label). Check of deceased imports offers no recognized candidate.

This one looks interesting for breeding - going to be done in next days.

Bloomed late for hardy species but carolinas also have just started. Also noting emergence of fresh “branching” on main cane to leaf nodes. Holds promise of nice structure.

Pictures worth 1000 words.

[MidAtlas]

I’ve been scratching my head over this one… no named variety seems to be a good match so far. Maybe it’s something bred by a lesser-known hybridizer? If I were just taking a wild stab at it, I might have guessed at a parentage like ‘Therese Bugnet’ x ‘Polstjarnan’, but I’ve found no solid leads.

Stefan

[RikuHelin]

Hi Stefan,

Txs for taking a crack at it. Please carry on when you have an idyl moment, l will be happy to answer plant questions and send photos before fall.

I do strongly doubt this is a pure species such as spino. But, anything possible eg flora plena Svensk l think was out of nature - fantastic full double, when l get a bloom that has not balled. But solid spino to my eye.

In realm of origins scenarios, and assuming a vendor forgotten import there is only one source, Rosenposten during the period 2019-2022. years. The bush is oldish, l guess 3-4 years ( strong canes ) but blooms never notice until this year. Use to acquire species spino and historical from vendor.

They tend to carry a lot of spinossissimas / pimpinefolia / species / crosses and owner hybridizes them. A few are semi double to double. How based on small spectrum l have samples of, all retain strong spino traits. The unnamed rose to me is weak on those (main cane and leaf prickle density).

That 2019-22 time line would fit with age and size of the canes. Excluding my aggressive R. Xanthina seedling that hit 3-4 feet in ~ < 2 years. Spino hybrids within 6 feet, Rosa Konanica Vacratot, White in the Rain (deceased) and Valdemarsvik (found - strong contender based on bloom for but not leaves / cluster bloom / cane traits - but can’t find it).

However l am getting spino tunnel vision above, nothing except low density crown bristle support the fundamental traits of a pure spino species but perhaps ? F1? But Therese has them also

Leaves form/size/count/cluster blooms support Therese, but color of “leaf” more grey green. One Therese 5 feet away. New cane sections do not have leaf node prickle and mid node prickles.

Before l twist myself into pretzel, l plan this fall to dive into the crown area digging for a tag. Strongly doubt l will find one.

As to lesser know breeders, l have to include myself as low probability unintentional ringer.

In early days l use to toss my concluded failed germinations into that bed. However one of them would of had to travel quite far to get to the location (though known to lose it with fails) and also germinated in contempt of my skills. Use to use white Altaica in early days - but thats back to spinos that l believe we both agree are of a low probability of being in this rose.

Also did a few crossings this morning on Rosa x- file that include Therese Bugnet and with other pollen parents below:

x Mme de la Roche Lambert
x Marechal Davoust
x Therese Bugnet
x Grannies Rose
x Auli

Skipped polstjarnan.

Of course have not a clue if make hips, seeds and germinates easily.

Today,

[MidAtlas]

My suggestion was purely of a speculative/intuitive nature, of course, but I was looking at photos of TB offspring and noted some with more grayish foliage and might surmise that the trait can be strengthened through the right crosses (that is certainly due to the R. blanda in it). I would think that the same could also be said for other roses, like ‘Polstjarnan’ with its R. beggeriana parentage, at least if you can actually get it to cooperate as a parent. At the same time, there is something subtly Sect. Synstylae-like in certain features, which again could be coming through from a rose like ‘Polstjarnan’.

I’m definitely not getting much (if any) of a Spin vibe from it, either.

In the interest of exhausting all possibilities, is there chance that it could have been a spontaneous seedling? Or seed that you collected from open pollinated hips?

Stefan

[RikuHelin]

Again thanks for input - definitely better than working in a vacuum.

No worries, in my old professional life we use to use the old euphemism “brain storming” ( ie no critiquing until time to weed out options against to be set stricter criteria)

Yes, excluding my tossed efforts, all my garden sections have produced what l call OP seedlings ( spontaneous seedlings? and also had a carolina “sport to plena” - still is).

But not in large numbers (25 seasons here) usually l notice one or two every couple of years.

I notice them in spring after foliage litter has been through a winter and the surroundings main growth/perennials (eg ferns salomon’s seal cranes bill slavia etc) has not started … as they appear as very small twiglets. From 1 1/2 inches to 3inches.

Then they disappear in the surrounding foliage for the growing year - in the front garden mainly spinos. I have not tried to preserve them. Use to move and tag what rose they were found near - fell away from the practise.

[RikuHelin]

Okay l tend to be impatient, not waiting for fall. So dug down. No tag.

Dead canes cut but split cane left as alive and a bloom cane.

If anybody is a “root / crown reader” please feel free to interpret the picture w/o prejudice.

There are two roots or runners, at the top and on each side of exposed stock. Both are tapered away from main plant roots / crown… both tips are rotten. The longest turned up into rose canes to show.

I can’t tell for certain if grafted and graft died, or whether it is an own root. But I now favour own root (all canes similiar). My bet is its a laxa looking “root system” as has hints of carrot like form.

So my focus has changed to is it a laxa root stock variant or a grafted rose l bought - found no vendor tag or one of mine.

I believe its older than 3 years.

[MidAtlas]

It’s definitely not a “laxa” rootstock, as (among other things) the hypanthium shape is all wrong, and it would be very unusual to see suckering like that. It doesn’t really look grafted to me, either, and a seedling (particularly one that never lived in a pot) would also be more inclined to send down a deeper root, taproot-style, before spreading outward.

[RikuHelin]

l can buy into own root based on my growing experience with very young cross seedlings.

At less than 2 years old they have thrown out strong runners that developed into new plants.

So l am checking the “own root box” because of no recognized artifact of a grafted rootstock … and has associated runners that probably failed. I will keep eye out for younger plants.

One observation from my time yesterday in under growth jungle, the canes really show confusion on their part on finding a bristle pattern thats stable as you go up the cane. Only as you get to the top third do you get to the final leaf node - cane midpoint pattern stability region.

Now how to proceed with figuring and proving out how to find it a “category home”.

A friend showed me photos of a rose of unknown location, and origins with a non conventional funky crossing label. Has renegade hybridizer written all over it.

I gather the label meant it was a cross of a “glauca x laxa”. I was luke warm to it due to prickles pattern and flower (white full double appearance but not high density floret / cluster). Until l noted yesterday the same bristle pattern on Rosa x-file (my study name) in the transition zone to final stable repeating pattern.

So R gluaca (R rubrifolia) is a potential parent for me due to leaf pattern and red tinge in Rosa x-files 9 leaflet leaves.

My 20 year glauca below. Laxa new in my garden so they aren’t likely the male parent if this rose created in situ - on Canadian Rockies eastern slope foothills.

[MidAtlas]

I could certainly believe that R. glauca is involved–what hybrids of that species do you already grow? Since at least two or three other species would have to be in the mix, either both parents might already be hybrids, or else one had a fairly complex background with at least R. rugosa and something like R. laxa involved (say, one of the numbered ‘Ross Rambler’ offspring, like RR#2 or RR#14). If something like ‘Carmenetta’ could have been one parent, then R. rugosa would already be baked in on the R. glauca-containing side.

[Margit_Schowalter]

Hi Rick
Take a look at ‘Conestoga’ on HMF.

'Conestoga' rose photos

[RikuHelin]

Stefan good thinking, however l believe Margit threw a good hot glowing coal onto my gasoline soaked lap. She’s got right rose imo. Well done Margit.

Number 1 reason is l have, or had Conestoga for about 5-7 years (Isabelle Preston AgCan intro 1946 Betty Bland x unnamed seedling), another check mark for blanda suggestion … parentage not fully defined l believe.

… lsabelle … “ The first professional hybridist in Canada. During her career at the Central Experimental Farm in Ottawa (retired 1946), she originated nearly 200 hybrid …”

It was an own root from Cornhill (at least we got own right ). I remember because they spelt name wrong on site and tag (thats rich coming from me).

Never distinguished itself with any bloom l remember. Until this year. Planted in same general area.

And remember this spring it was in terrible shape after winter - l find die down or hard pruning sometimes invigorates and sparks better performance.

It also had the old metal tag with white paint that flakes off as cheap metal rusts out, and l could have pulled it out to replace with stainless - but didn’t. Highly probable will get new shiny tag

I will take a look in the undergrowth, but color there on x-file, floret there, ignoring the full double version photos … lots going for having Rosa x- files id.

Thanks to both of you for help.

… 97.5% sure right rose … six sigma confidence ? … too many coincidental and non-coincidental vectors pointing to it.

And ended up testing this year with following crosses … last today when blanda may be in it

x Grannie’s Rose
x Mme de la Roche-Lambert
x Marechal Davoust
x Therese Bugnet
x Auli
x polstjarnan
x L 83
x R. blanda “Herttoniemi”

[MidAtlas]

I agree, Margit nailed it!