Rosa virginiana?

I wonder if anyone can confirm that this can be found growing along the St. Lawrence River in Canada, Quebec province. (I don’t know if it is found in that cold of a climate.)

I collected hips last summer of a wild rose there (not the ubiquitous rugosas) that had comparably lustrous foliage, perhaps slightly rugose, and generally pretty hardy and healthy looking with a neater, rounder habit than the rugosas. (They had no blooms at the time).

Has anyone used it? And what could you tell me about it?

Thanks!

If you took pictures of the hips or of the plant, please share those pictures.

I’ll have to figure out how/where to upload photo. I don’t have a site for such, and I gather forum will not host such.

While the nearby Rugosas were already blooming (mid-late June) this one would obviously be a much later bloomer. While somewhat “etched” the leaves were less deeply rugose than the rugosas, and comparably lustrous. Leaflets were a good deal more lanceolate, with (it appears) 7 to 11 per leaf. Hips, if I recall, were not thorny, not overly large, and somewhat squat in shape,

I’m guessing it would have been USDA zone 4 where they were growing, and the growth looked very fresh, bright lime green, so I’m thinking it died back pretty hard, broke dormancy late, and was perhaps marginallly hardy. New stems are olive green in color. Stems with dried hips still on them were all dead, presumably from winter die-back. (These are probably dumb observations, but I’m a southerner, and roses dying back so hard in winter is novel to me.)

In the photo, it does not appear to be very thorny, thought the older dead twigs (non-descript brown color) look bumpy, or pimply, for lack of a better word.

You could use flickr to post photos. It does not take a lot of knowledge to figure it out which I like.

map of R. virginiana distribution

Philip, photos are EASY! You have two ways to post them here. The very first thing to make sure of is having your images resized to 300 dpi before trying. Yes, you can post 600 dpi from Flickr for images you wish greater resolution for, but using 300 dpi makes it faster and provides fewer issues.

Above where you type, there is “attach file”. That opens a browser window where you may select up to three images from your hard drive (one at a time) and provides you instructions on how to attach them to your post.

If you don’t already, open a Flickr account and post your images there. Using the Flickr tab on the tool bar above your post space, you can add numerous images from that account, and in varying sizes.

If the images are already posted on line, you can use the tab which resembles a photo of a mountain with the sun in the tool bar to insert the link for the image and it will appear in your post. That won’t work for HMF as they’ve disabled it to prevent unauthorized use of photos, but it works for most others. Phorum IV really has made images easy!

[quote=Philip_LA]

While somewhat “etched” the leaves were less deeply rugose than the rugosas, and comparably lustrous. Leaflets were a good deal more lanceolate, with (it appears) 7 to 11 per leaf. Hips, if I recall, were not thorny, not overly large, and somewhat squat in shape,

I’m guessing it would have been USDA zone 4 where they were growing, and the growth looked very fresh, bright lime green, so I’m thinking it died back pretty hard, broke dormancy late, and was perhaps marginallly hardy. New stems are olive green in color. Stems with dried hips still on them were all dead, presumably from winter die-back. (These are probably dumb observations, but I’m a southerner, and roses dying back so hard in winter is novel to me.)

In the photo, it does not appear to be very thorny, thought the older dead twigs (non-descript brown color) look bumpy, or pimply, for lack of a better word.[/quote]

Philip, your mention of that number of leaflets and their shape makes me think that you may have found some R. nitida (also here)

Peter

Oh yeah. Duh. I didn’t see that, Kim. Thanks.

Dunno if it will work, but apologies for the size. The photo was a wide view, and there are several areas with different details that would get lost if I downsize.

Peter, yes, some of those images very much resemble the rose. But the cinnamon colored canes I did not notice. Perhaps because it was still green?

So I figured it likely that I had hips which would be useless to me… If that thing isn’t found further south than New England, it ain’t gonna like it in central TX…

[attachment 1442 Rosasp.CA]

Philip, you can probably simplify viewing the images for everyone else if you can make sure you post JPG types. The “CA” file was read by my photo program as a mis named jpg. It had to download it, rename and then open it. Posting JPG types permit them to show in the text.

Weird. It was saved as a jpg, but I apparently did a “.” typo. Sorry.

Computers will see that as a file type.

Here it is without the dot…

[attachment 1443 Rosasp.jpg]

It’s hard to see the leaflets for all the leaves, Philip.

I do see some leaves with 9 leaflets (virginiana has 7-9 leaflets). If you have a larger file and can count 11 leaflets in any leaves, I’d say it’s more likely to be nitida.

Some of the canes in your picture are reddish brown, and the leaflets are close to what I’d expect in nitida.

The height seems to be maybe 3 feet, which is in the nitida range (virginiana is usually a bit taller).

Nitida’s hips are more flattened than those of virginiana.

I grow Pickering version and good to zone3a Alberta.Cornhill nursery has some bush and leaf photos on site and claims zone2 and ne America home. Henry K put a rugosa paper by Quebec univ a few years back. Dealt specifically with St. lawence area can’t remember it might mention R. Vir

Peter, I think you are spot on with R. nitida on this one. I’ve searched a lot of images online, and while folks will call anything R. nitida, most of the reliable sources seem to point to this being R. nitida, and the range certainly makes more sense. The “shining rose” description meets my recollections.

I don’t reckon this beast will, however, be of any use to me should I succeed in germinating its seeds…

I don’t know I think there could be some use to it even if it does turn out to be R. nitida. R. virginiana would however be nicer to cross with modern roses.

Nitida has some good offspring, and more than you might think (HMF says 43, counting all generations). The glossy leaves with excellent fall color seem to come through in crosses. It has a tidy growth habit, and it is pretty tough. It’s worth using.

Several crosses with rugosa and other roses are available and could be used if you want to skip the first step in taming the species. Aylsham, Metis, Corylus, Dart’s Defender, Nyveldt’s White, Orantida (Kim used Orangeade just because it’s not a fussy mate), Nitiponensis, and others. It is part of the parentage of many of the recent Canadian roses.

Peter

FYI, if you should ever happen to use R. nitida as a seed parent, I found that it was one of the species roses whose germination benefited dramatically from a period of room temperature stratification (6 weeks is what I used) prior to cold. The seeds going directly into the cold did not germinate nearly as well. This could very well hold true for F1’s.

BTW, R. virginiana is tip hardy in Zone 3B. I’ve had one for many years and last spring was the first time I have ever seen damage. We had a Zone 5 winter and a spring that began the end of March instead of late April. All the roses were leafed out and then we got several days with nights in the 20’s in late May. The damage on nearly all roses–hardy and not–was horrendous. Only a few roses escaped unscathed.

Has anyone used ‘Bella Nitida’ as a parent? I just added that one to my order for spring. It’s supposed to have a long flowering period and is very healthy. Also a large and double bloom form with decorative hips

Thanks for that info on virginiana, Julie. It’s good to know it’s hardy.

By accident I have probably over a thousand OP virginiana seeds stratifying in seed flats and I don’t know what I’ll do with them if they germinate. Is it really worth the field space to line them all out and select the best for further breeding? There was some variation in the 5 seedlings that I bought from Lawyer Nursery and lined out.

Peter, I’d LOVE to be able to use the darned thing, it’s just that I cannot imagine its seedling surviving a TX summer. Most of my more hardy species roses really sulk and toe the threshold or try to cross over to the other side when summer comes.

Hi Joe,

There will always be some variation between plants within a species. My personal policy when germinating species seeds is to limit the number of species seedlings planted out in 6-packs to no more than 50. I only transplant one to two dozen of the most vigorous growers up to liners. I’d then line them out or grow them in larger pots (1 gallon) for one summer and cull in the fall. Same thing with the remaining the following year. Doing things this way gave me one outstanding male and female R. setigera–a rose that is very marginally hardy here but the ones I kept exhibited the best hardiness and also good health. I’d also keep anything that shows any signs of hybridity. Species roses just take up so much space and R. virginiana suckers rampantly so it doesn’t take long to have a real mess that can be a challenge to eradicate. I’ve always come up with some decent plants using this approach and while there might be better ones that are missed, you really can’t miss what you never saw. Under nearly all circumstances (except the suckering) I consider R. virginiana a really great species and it works pretty well as a female.



I mentioned the female R. setigera above. Now about 12 years old, this rose is a rampant and vigorous grower but responds well to pretty harsh thinning and pruning each year and is gorgeous at a time when most other things are done blooming. I’ve tried it in crosses with many different tetraploids and a few diploids, had good take on the crosses and lots of seeds produced, but never had a single thing germinate. I had never tried to germinate the OP seed but after being disappointed so many times by crosses that failed to germinate, I finally decided to see if the OP seeds were capable of germinating–and I now have a bag of 100 seeds that probably all germinated in a two week period. I kept four 6-packs. I figure I can always do more next year if it turns out that there is more variation or signs of hybridity than expected. I love the species roses but I generally don’t want to have more than one of anything (except for the male and female R. setigera). I’d save the space and your back for all those wonderful seedlings you’ll have soon. However, this is my approach. I was a lot more gung ho years back but unlimited space proved to be a Catch 22 as my time and ability to care for everything did not match the space I had available. You have a lot of years to work at this and a lot of land–pace yourself!.

[quote=Philip_LA]

Peter, I’d LOVE to be able to use the darned thing, it’s just that I cannot imagine its seedling surviving a TX summer. Most of my more hardy species roses really sulk and toe the threshold or try to cross over to the other side when summer comes.[/quote]

If they don’t survive and prosper, you haven’t lost anything that you would have had otherwise. Maybe you could provide shade for the area where the roots are. Both nitida and virginiana did fine in Lubbock (1972-1984). I did keep them watered, but otherwise did little for them. They probably bloomed less there than they would have in their native habitat, but they did have some blooms. The virginiana suckered more than the nitida. The soil in Lubbock is different from what you have in Austin, and so is the altitude.