Are others working with this species? Have you found relatively easy germination with it too? A number of years ago I propagated and shared several cuttings of a clone with RHA members I was given by Dr. Peter Ascher. It was given to him as a seed from a botanical garden in Siberia from a scientist he was working with. He germinated it and had a flat of 4" pots that he sat next to his barn. A decade later he dug up the flat and surviving roses that were overgrown in it (roots out of the bottom of the pots) and gave the mass of pots and roses to me. I did my best to break the pots away and pot up the roses. Most were R. gallica, but there was this one R. max.
I’ve been surprised how easily the seeds germinate from this species and hybrids of it with polyanthas. Have others that have used this species or this clone found the same thing? I was able to do a little bit of breeding with a different R. max. hybrid ‘White Mountains’ the past couple years and seeds of it are among the first to germinate for me too.
Sincerely,
David
Hi David;
I do not think many people use it in their breeding programmes, I have never come across it referenced untill now, with yours.
Have you crossed it with any modern Tetraploids yet? Having the seeds germinate quickly and with ease is a big bonus as well. When using White Mountains did you get any repeat flowering offspring? and how was the health and vigour .
cheers Warren
I have a nice seedling group from the seeds you sent me David.
One is inerm. Most are recurrent pale polyantha-miniatures a few ground hugging once bloomers.
Easy germination IMO is related to small seed size.
The bigger the seed the more difficult germination.
Pierre you should try germinating the rocks they call seed that come out of Tea’s and R. gigantea. When I use Tea’s ect. I have cultivars of my own which germinate on a damp rag so I use them as the seed parent, saves a lot of time wondering whether there going to pop up or not.
Warren
Pierre, very interesting observation. Do you think it is the weight of the actual seed, or more about the achene being more woody?
Hi Larry;
From what I have seen from Tea’s the achene wall is probably twice as thick , but when it comes to those boulder seeds from R. gigantea they are extremely woody with about 1/16th of an inch if that for the embryo.
warren
Here are my only two polyantha X Maximowicziana seedlings from about 1 year ago, both died on me!!! I cannot recall exactly why, it was a very rapid demise after a great start…prolly some disease of sorts (these were embryo cultured which was a mistake I will not repeat again)!!!
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George they look healthier enough. You did n’t keep them too wet, I found rose seedlings dampen off if kept too wet but once the stem below the cotylendon leaves turns brown they get a bit tougher. Mate your snail bait looks massive, sortof like sections of the Saudi oil pipeline LOL.
When I use snail bait, its placed around the pots in the trays never on top of the soil, I feel the chemicals leaching out into such small amount of soil may effect the seedling, not paranoid but after waiting that long you do not want anything to happen effecting their growth.
Warren
David,
I’m very pleased you are working with this species. I will be too. A breeding program based on Rosa maximowicziana is a priority for me, since I think it has great potential to produce groundcovers or roses suitable for growing in containers. I think though it should be first hybridized with Rosa wichurana to hopefully improve disease resistance and ability to root softwood cuttings in selections developed from this species hybrid. I’ll be doing that next year.
Once I have developed a suitable Rosa maximowicziana x Rosa wichurana hybrid, I’ll likely first cross it with ‘Schneezwerg’ in an attempt to develop shorter, relatively hardy (Zone 4) shrub roses. Especially, having yellow flowers.
Hi Warren,
You are so funny, that made me laugh about the snail bait size )
To put a perspective on my failure, this seed was sent to me from overseas in late 2010, at a time when our summer temperatures were already upon us, it came from the Minnesota cold (freezing by our standards here LOL). I feel I should have stratified it in the fridge and germinated it when our temperatures were much much cooler, rather than force its germination in our summer via the embryo culture.
In any case, it is obvious in the case of this seed from what others are saying here, that there is no benefit to embryo culture even if the timimg was “right”, just my opinion of course…
)
My rose seedlings when forced to germinate in summer (via embryo culture) have never really done well for me as a group, there is often sudden mortality, the heat is just too much for them and they often give up the ghost, JMHO.
Warren, Larry & all
I tried Teas and Gigantea seeds a few times and nevermore as seed parent.
Some smaller species seeds have germination inhibitors i.e. banksiae.
Something readily lost in species hybrids among which one can say: the smaller the seeds the easier to germinate.
And yes first hypothesis is that seed walls are thinner.
And “If you can think of a good counter-example, I’d like to know.”
George I germinate nothing during our summer. Most of my hips are harvested and are in stratification by Feb, by the end of april most will be sown and germination starting by mid May. All my seedlings are grown through the dead of winter outside and bought in at night so there is no frost damage. Any late Spring seedlings germinating will struggle the whole growing season , while those which grew out during winter will have incrediable growth.
This is how I do it in my growing area, other people do it differently according to the climatic conditions in their area.
Warren
Paul, have you considered playing with thornless Wichurana in hopes of eliminating the prickles? Has anyone raised anything from the Basye Thornless Wich.? I have it but haven’t used it yet. Too many other things get in the way. Kim
I germinate nothing during our summer<<<<<<<<
Yup, there lies the likely explanation why they failed, to be sure!
Kim,
I have six different crosses this season with the thornless Wichurana that you sent me-I did try a couple crosses both ways, all produced seeds, will see if they produce seedlings.
I’m hopeful that these as well as a couple of other thornless will see some results. The Wichurana was quick to bloom from cuttings, I don’t suppose they are quite so fast from seed.
It will be fun seeing what you raise from them, Jackie. What were the crosses you made? Thanks. Kim
Well, they are a motley crew! I have two seedlings, a Moondance X B.Streisand and a Gemini X About Face both of which are almost thornless and have other nice traits. Hoping to do something with whatever comes out of that mix. Also crossed Gemini, Lady of the Mist, and Rt 66 with Rosa Wich. Want to see how dominant the ‘thornless’ trait is. These have also been crossed with Basyes Legacy and Paul Bardons’ 34-06-05. Will be comparing thornless traits, and hopefully getting a few ideas for future crosses. There are a few other crosses made with a pollen mix, will see what dominates, and how fertile those pollens were.
How easily does Basye’s Legacy pass on the thornless trait?
I love your idea Paul to cross R. max. with R. wichurana for health. The hybrids I have with it are with a multiflora based polyantha. The hybrids are very fertile, but tend to get some black spot and leaf spot. They hold it back some which is nice, but not to the extent needed. I crossed them with some polys this past spring that have glossier leaves and more of a wichurana influence. I’m really excited for them and for repeat bloom to be recovered in some. It would sure be great to cross those two species first and move forward- especially if some of the crosses could involve ‘Basye’s Thornless’ and get thornlessnes in the mix too.
David, if and when you have some pollen, I sure like that idea of putting it on some wichurana-of which I only have the thornless variety. That does sound like a good place to build a line on, for many reasons. Groundcovers and thornlessness together with a recurrent flower are part of the future of roses.