Ok yes! I sensed that this conversation needed to happen and the conceptualization of what exactly we are going to be doing moving forward needs to be discussed.
My plan is to create “complimentary” lineages.
I agree with you to an extent-make the species hybrids and keep anyone that is in alignment with your aesthetic goals. Mate all the siblings of a cross to another species-modern hybrid sibling family group and see what comes of it. Don’t bother selecting one “primogenitor” to represent the “pinnacle” of a hybridization effort- keep several of the successful siblings and try each one on the siblings of another successful lineage.
It is not feasible for me to source species seeds from multiple sources to ensure that each seedling was not collected from the same parent plant. However that is a good idea that has crossed my mind and in the span of time perhaps that will become my next paradigm. . That will have to wait till I have more resources at my disposal and have relocated to the islands where grow seasons are longer. I could never trust it unless there were multiple sources in the country of origin of the rose or if I collected the seeds from vendors over a large span of time. There is no way to tell how many individuals were actually imported into the US of some of these species so they could all be clones of a few individuals importees if that!
If they can be attained- both Moore and Rupert created a wide variety of species hybrids in the prior decades here in the States that already have repeat bloom genetics. No sense in ignoring their lifetime of work while it still exists to be attained. Burling Leong still retains and propagates many of Moore’s IP hybrids. Rupert is our very own “Roseseek” I have never encountered Rippletoe or Barden. Barden has made public statements indicating that he has retired from the field.
Unfortunately, you are an ocean away so this information will not help you to acquire the species hybrids in your home country. Unless you are wealthy enough to go through the official channels to import specimens. and feel that you want to make that investment. However maybe you have a Moore or Rupert in your home country. Maybe Help Me Find can help you to discover someone in your country that has been performing hybridization efforts. Weird -Hard hybridizations.
For now combining a Bracteate hybrid with a bansksia hybrid to produce a sibling group of super rooted roses with glossy gorgeous foliage and repeat bloom that wouldn’t be killed by a little frost is an awesome accomplishment,
Getting a large golden apricot flowered rose with beautiful red barked stems and a tall narrow twiggy growth habit that flowered all spring summer and fall would revolutionize everything for me. That is enough for my current paradigm.
A very mossy white rose that could be grown for excellently formed cut flowers that bloomed all season and had a beautiful fragrance–that would be sensational. An iconic rose that would have people excited.
A simple semi-double wild looking pink rose that would climb or vine with incredible vigor.One that would sprawl and take off in every backyard in my climatic region. It would set red hips and have a very very strong wafting fragrance. I know factually that people would spend good money to have such a rose. It would be iconic. It needs to look like what people imagine a wild rose should look like. It must repeat bloom and be beautifully fragrant and delight young children. Cold hardiness is not an extremely important consideration here. If you had the qualities of beautiful bloom, incredible fragrance and extreme vigor it would be ok for it to behave as a tender perennial as long as propagation was easy enough. Just buy another one if you live in Michigan or wherever. People are constantly replacing their hydrangeas and buddleia which get killed off every couple of years. You want this magical wild looking fragrant pink rose that blooms all summer long then buy another one when a freak cold snap kills it.
You can have the wild experimentation that you want, the openess to experience and the willingness to receive what chance throws at you and still work within an aesthetic framework. So much has already been done in this regard and the part that has captured me so hard is the potential that some of these hybrids have locked within them- a flower form that we have never seen before.
So far as how to select seedlings-
This archive clearly states that mildew propensity in youth can be overcome with maturity and I have witnessed this in the grow out parents. Ping Dong Yue Ji mildewed horribly but overcame this as the temps rose and new growth exploded outward. I would never give up this rose now that it has reached past 18" tall. The mildewed leaves looked bad but the rose was able to produce a first and second flush of not less than 5 excellently formed and fragrant flowers. So mildew resistance in the baby roses will not be playing a life or death role in initial cull selection over other qualities.
This archive has stated that fragrance does tend to improve and strengthen in maturity BUT non fragrant juvenile roses do not become fragrant with age so this will be a criterion for the initial ruthless culling.
I am ignorant of the blackspot pressure others may face. Here the blackspot is merely an assistive mechanism that happens when the Pernetiana’s want to flush out new branches. They have to dump their leaves first for some reason. Some of the vigorous hybrid teas do this as well as Austin’s Evelyn. They dump leaves with the blackspot just as their lateral buds start to swell and a new fresh flush of leafy side stems emerge. It’s a pain to have to manually assist but the roses are high quality so I dont mind. I do not have a strong guideline as of yet on how to deal with blackspot as a selection criterion and I don’t imagine that it will appear in my pampered seedling areas. It really is only a problem when roses enter into that stage of rapid growth and are dumping leaves with swollen nodes. I have not seen any other manifestation of this disease. Ugly leaved roses in my collection are actually a result of certain plants that do not want to relinquish their flowers or their leaves. I consider this a breeding quality. That Leonidas rose has exceptional longevity. His flowers cling NO MATTER WHAT! And two weeks later you have to wrench the dead flowers off. La Reine does this too. I like this trait, as many roses are too wimpy about keeping their flowers on. Seems useful and I hope it passes onto offspring. I suspect it will.
This archive and HMF indicates that several Rosa bansksia hybrids were created in the US by a couple American hybridizers over the course of the last several decades. Though frost-tender this species has the ability to give roses POWERFUL root systems. Bracteate hybrids also do this. In addition to the powerful root systems both of these roses have hybrids that have THE MOST GORGEOUS GLOSSY SLICK BEAUTIFULLY COLORED FOLIAGE THAT NOTHING CAN PENETRATE AND WRECK. These are two species you may have access to in your country. The archive has stated that hybrids with these two species are a bit difficult to attain and are rare but we have identified a few MUTANT “fertile triploid” roses that can cross reproductive barriers and produce viable offspring despite not sharing any real heritage with one another. If you are able to attain any of these roses your hybridization efforts with the species you end up gathering will be much easier (supposedly). Some that may be available to you are-
DEE LISH Meilland
Blue for You
April Moon (Not sure if Griffith Buck Roses ever went international)
If Austin’s Belle Story is available to you GET IT! It is very likely triploid and has proven itself to make very wide crosses.
I have a fairly substantial collection of OGR’s that have the European genetics. For me the China lineage is where it is at. Teas, China’s and the very strong Hybrid teas are awesome and where I want to be. The Bermuda Roses are also amazing. Mosses have been also very strong growers for me and maintain cleanliness and I should consider expanding my collection of mosses. I have the two most fertile ones Nuits de Young and Quatre Saisons Blanc.
I know I want to do something to help make my hybrids cold hardier but have not really conceptualized a scheme as of yet. I have the European and Species specimens to attempt this but the exotic tropicals are so so NICE!!!
Basically I’m not sold on disease resistance being more worthy than aesthetic considerations. Disease pressure co-evolves with plants. If we want to eliminate disease pressure we need to create an environment where there is ridiculous amounts of species origin diversity available to everyone and all future roses are distinct vigorous hybrids of multiple species. We have to go through an insane MASH-UP phase. That is what I believe. That is what I foresee.