Releasing Roses

General Discussion
1

Since I am stuck at home with a –stupid- head cold, I have been thinking of topics to post on this forum.

One, I’d like to discuss (that I couldn’t find anywhere by searching) is your opinions on how/when to release a rose. Yes, I know that my position is different than most on this forum (I’m in a university setting), but it’s been something that I’ve been thinking about for years.

There are several roses that Dr. Byrne and I will initially like, but within two-three years whatever disease resistance we thought they had breaks down…and how much disease is acceptable to the general public?

Also, can we risk releasing something that doesn’t have stellar disease resistance if it’s a step in the right direction? (For example, we have a ‘Perfume Delight’ seedling that has much better disease resistance than its black spot magnet parent. It has a great shrub form, very fragrant but is a bit stingy in the bloom department…)

Then there are those that are doing wonderfully, but don’t root well…

There are some that have a good disease resistance and are vigorous plants but are once bloomers. (We can’t even get the industry people to look at those!)

So what’s your opinion? How and when do you feel ready to take the ‘plunge’ (so to speak) with releasing one of your cherished rose babies?

2

Natalie,

First, hope you are feeling better soon.

After hearing you speak at our last meeting it occurred to me that with all the research that TAMU has been doing you are searching for perfection. I dare say that your breeding program has most likely produced many roses that are better than many that are already in commerce. Can you name a rose in commerce today that is fragrant, blackspot resistant, heat and drought tolerant, cold tolerant, roots easily, has a quick repeat, has good bloom form and a pleasing, growth habit? And, as hybridizers we would want it to be seed and pollen fertile. I don’t think there are many roses that fit that bill. As humans none of us are perfect and I believe the same applies to roses.

Is it a rose that could easily be grown by a novice without too much fuss? Also, remember that everyone has different tastes when it comes to roses they like. It has been my observation that many men like red roses and many of them perfer singles. Women on the other hand like roses with great fragrance and lots of petals.

Personally, I would love to see TAMU release some of their roses, I bet there are some real jewels there.

3

Hi Natalie!

That would be great if we could grow some of your roses!! I would love it if you released your best roses to the marketplace. You’ve been working hard for a long time developing them. One of the biggest challenges the U of MN faces is nursery partners picking them up in volumes acceptable to the university patent and trademark lawyers to cover the protection costs, profits, etc. Hopefully you have an easy to work with intellectual property group there at Texas A&M that would help with the process.

4

I hardly think you’d have to wait for perfection in the disease department. Some of the spottiest roses in the world are best sellers because the blooms are gorgeous and people keep buying them even though they know they’re going to get black spot. When I first got serious about roses, maybe 6 years ago, I was a sucker for every new rose advertisement out there. I wanted them all and bought quite a few of them. I can tell you that none of them are spotless and most of them didn’t even come close to living up to their press releases. That said I really like a lot of them anyway and I’m not sorry I bought them. If you have some beautiful roses that you want to share I’d say go for it! Even a small improvement in resistance would be welcome IMHO

5

Hi Nat, I agree with Joan. Always striving for perfection is a good thing, as long as you (or the decision makers) remember perfection is impossible. Probably not a very good example, but if Austin resisted releasing anything until it was perfect, there would be no English roses, NONE. If the entire reason for the program’s existence is academic, then withholding release of the roses is fine, but no one will see your progress; there will be no yardstick against which to measure your work unless products are sent out. You might consider it “advertising”. Simply talking about what is being worked toward is fine, but will quickly pass in most peoples’ minds. Being able to point to, touch and show off the fruit of your efforts will daily keep your name and your program’s worth in peoples’ faces.

You see many roses, so it isn’t as if you don’t know what to judge yours against. If it’s attractive, easily grown, delivers at least as good health (hopefully better!) than the average around you and you can recoup some of the program’s expenses from it, why not? Paul Barden found a niche, a small one, but one which required filling with his healthier Gallicas and many people love them. I don’t think your once flowering one would be that fortunate, unless it is very healthy, very cold hardy and quite beautiful, but it could well be a tool to create other improved ones for warmer climates.

I think the trap that’s easily fallen in to is what Austin seemed to fall into early on. For several years, at least here, it appeared the primary differences in quite a few of his ‘new, improved’ roses was the addition of one more petal. As long as what is released offers measurable improvements over what preceded them, they should be welcomed with open arms and should generate not only buzz, but dollars for the program. Besides, feed back from people who LIVE with them is likely to give you a better balanced report of what they are actually capable of, particularly since they will likely come from much wider varying conditions than you’re able to see them in “in house”. Your growing conditions may well be to the extreme and much worse than the average rose grower experiences.

There IS demand for the results of your work. Don’t miss out on it by demanding anything released be “perfect”, because we all know nothing IS. Put your best before us and we’ll probably eat it up gratefully. Kim

6

I have related questions. I’ve read, maybe here on this forum somewhere, that companies will be quite leery of picking up a rose if it’s ‘out there’ too much.

Of course it would be best to trial one’s potential introduction in various areas of the country before going through the patent process. Would, for instance, putting your rose in the two RHA trial gardens jeopardize any chance of a company picking up your rose? What about sending one to a friend in another state?

These questions assume that such companies actually exist…maybe there are only one or two now? Star Roses and Weeks? It seems like a really slim chance, squeezing into their catalogs. Are there any other options? David mentioned the difficulty of finding a nursery willing to commit to a rose in large enough quantities to make the patent process pay.

Would one submit one’s rose to, for instance, Star Roses, for evaluation before patenting it, relying on a non-propagation agreement only? If they rejected it, then stubbornly find other places to trial it?

Because I have a nursery, I would have another option: patenting, promoting, and propagating the rose myself. I doubt that would be a good idea. Pretty much a last resort, I think, given that we’re not yet a wholesale business and northern MN is not an ideal climate in which to produce roses.

Fun to dream. We can all only hope to have these problems. Hope you feel better, soon, Natalie! (and anyone else who’s feeling under the weather.)

7

It’s a heckuva time to be trying to introduce new cultivars, as the article below indicates:

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/02/13/1852762/bloom-comes-off-the-rose-industry.html

Since I’m understanding you to be asking the how and when question of releasing, I cannot offer any decent suggestions. I have numerous times voiced the opinion that we need better evaluation-cum-marketing tools in the states for amateurs to get exposure. THe current set-ups provide a winner-take-all limited lottery winning for a token few, often well connected, breeders, or so it seems to me.

If you are wanting large-scale, patentable and heavily marketed material, well that’s a matter for another to answer to. I’ll be following other’s responses with interest. Hopefully someone with some successfully marketed roses can chime in.

8

Chamblee is in the same state. Maybe they could be beneficial to work with?

9

I would agree that Chamblee’s would be a good outlet. I know they are marketing some of Ray Ponton’s Roses. Also, ARE has at least one of Ray Ponton’s roses and they are very close to you. Another outlet might be Del Real Roses in Caldwell. I’m sure TAMU has connections with numerous wholesalers across the state that I am not even aware of. The main question is, is TAMU required to patent everything it releases? That can be an expensive process and would require that it be only the cream of the crop. Could some of TAMU’s best be included in the Earthkind Trials? I agree with Kim, no one really knows what TAMU has accomplished until some roses are released; and, it is a process with improvements made over the years. Releasing a few of the best could certainly help to fund more research.

10

Ugh! Just tried to post this, and it didn’t work! (I’m blaming my cold medication!!)

Let me try again…

Wow! Thanks everyone for all of the great responses!

I think Joan hit it on the head when she said we were searching for perfection. And, of course I know that doesn’t exist (I wouldn’t have a job now would I?!) I think that perhaps I’ve been putting too much pressure on myself. I’ve been thinking that since it will have the backing of the university, it has to be perfect! But, it’s nice to be reminded that beauty and usefulness are different for different people/areas.

I think David also hit upon another concern I’ve had. The cost of doing the paperwork and going through the licensing and technology people can be daunting! The last time I asked Dr. Byrne how much it costs to release a peach variety he told me around $7000. (And yes, he’s released a lot of peach varieties.) I’m pretty sure that the costs will be similar for releasing roses. For me, that’s a large number to overcome. And in recent years, our budget has been shrinking…

I don’t even want to think about the costs associated with promoting a rose. (But maybe that’s a cost that is fronted by the releasing nursery…)

I know for certain that Mike Shoup of the Antique Rose Emporium has offered to release roses for us. Chamblee’s would probably be interested as well. Both companies have always kindly donated roses to us whenever we ask. But would they be so willing if they have to deal with the ‘licensing and technology’ people instead of just me and Dr. Byrne.

I think I’ve rambled too long now…

I like to hear what others have to say about my comments/concerns!

-Nat

There is also another ‘downside’ to patenting and releasing roses that I’ve haven’t seen mentioned in the forum before. If you allow your rose to become ‘public knowledge’ then you start the clock (so to speak) on the patent process. You only have 3 years from the time you first mention it to the world to get it patented. I’m not certain how tightly that’s regulated. It’s difficult to create a rose, propagate it and then ship it out to other test sites AND find out how well it performs within a 3 year period. Perhaps I am over-thinking this aspect.

Of course, there is something that Dr. Byrne and I refer to as a ‘general release’. No patent protection, no lawyers involved…you just release your rose to one or two nurseries and hope it does well. Of course, that means you get no revenue in return. Not that revenue is the ultimate goal, but…It seems increasingly obvious to me that academia is pushing for self sufficiency. -I have promised myself not to become political here, so let’s just leave that last statement as it is!- We do work off of an endowment established by Dr. Basye, but it’s limited. It would be nice to increase that endowment and not worry so much about budget concerns. However, I understand that everyone has to worry about money and that’s not an excuse for not releasing something. After all, both Dr. Basye and Mr. Moore were more concerned about getting material out there, not making money.

11

I hope you’re feeling better, Nat. Perhaps, the cost of promoting a newly released variety might be trimmed by having other students learn to write the patents and file paperwork? I realize it’s decades old information, but when patent costs ran around $2000 here, Ralph frequently said if he wrote and submitted it, he could accomplish the entire process for around $800. Even at those old rates, a 60% savings is significant. Surely there is someone in the program, or another student at the university who could be lured into the program, who would find the process interesting and enjoyable? “Anal retentives” abound and one of those really “detail oriented” folks would make a good candidate for the job. Perhaps payment could be made in the form of scholastic credit, like a class or project accomplished? It would be, after all, learning one of the processes necessary for successful nursery operation in a larger concern. Perhaps, it might be something shared by the introducing concern and the university? Get creative and figure out something beneficial for all parties concerned so there are negotiation points to get them introduced.

As for the three year clock and wanting to get material out there, releasing or sharing types which would likely be ones sold to another introducer by a “major” in the " good old days" when there were a number in the industry, might generate interest for the more substantial introductions? In the AARS trials, the plants grew for two years where they were known by numbers and seen by the public. Patenting would be initiated once it was apparent the variety was significant and worthy of introduction. Releasing a few plants under code number to a few for trial/test with the understanding they be controlled and confidential might work as your “test gardens”. Selecting the specific testers could take into consideration the major populations of disease and the higher pressure areas.

It is something I feel could be done and may well help create excitement and validity for not only the program, but those employed by it. At least you would all be showing fruit from your costs, and that may go a long way to securing additional funding.

12

“Ask people to name a favorite rose and they say Mister Lincoln or Double Delight or Peace,” Anderson said. “Those roses are 30, 40, 50 years old. What about new roses? Today’s roses are really superior - they bloom more, they’re disease-resistant - but people don’t know the names.”

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/02/13/1852762/bloom-comes-off-the-rose-industry.html#storylink=cpy[quote=newsobserver][/quote]

I think this quote from Philips’ link really sums up where the Home Depot/Lowes market is at right now. What we need to see now is more releases that have some availability that aren’t necessarily perfect, but are improvements over the Mister Lincoln/Dble Delight/Peace group. I’ve grown all these, and in this climate they do not hold a candle to the reliability of Sunny Side Up, Marmalade Skies,Gemini, Betty Boop, or Julia Child. These roses might not grow as well in other than our Mediterranean climate, and the Lincoln,Dbl. Delight, Peace group may grow better in other areas than here, so this may not be the best comparison. But, when I went into several outlets this past month, probably 75% (or more) of the roses available were Lincoln, Dble. Delight, and Peace. Honor, Queen Eliz., and New Day pretty much made up the rest of the choice, along with a couple that I had never heard of. Queen Eliz. really does quite well here(if you can ignore the rust), but the rest have some real shortcomings without piling on the special rose care. I say if you have real improvements, make some releases, because there is a gap in the market right now. But it will probably take a while and a lot of effort to get their names in the minds of consumers.

13

And, we have to remember, the newest of that lot has four decades of being photographed, smelled, encountered and advertised all over the world, so of course they will be ingrained in the public mind. Those sell in those quantities because of it and because, even with their limitations, they’re going to flower, virtually no matter what, and many are wonderfully fragrant.

Hopefully, you have something which will perform well as a landscape type which will sell in such quantities it will permit you to dabble in the HT types. Those are what stir the heart strings and become legendary, forgiven all of their faults and limitations and shoehorned into every hole possible from any source available, but you can’t sniff at a royalty paid on a couple of hundred thousand plants sold annually! I’d been told years ago that Joe Winchell collected $5000 on the first years sales of 30,000 plants of Dolly Parton, simply for signing his name (after the initial work, of course!). Not a bad haul for a gentleman easily in his seventies at that time. And, that didn’t have the wide spread distribution of many other types. Select something suitable for Conard Pyle to get behind, suitable for own root production and wide spread distribution and help your program support itself and make a name for you and everyone else. Easier said than done, but a worthy goal to pursue.

14

All

“The Big 2” as we are referred to here are not that big to begin with. Star is a family owned 115 years old company that has much smaller gross sales than your average neighborhood car dealership…One of the issue with a commercial nursery of any scale releasing a new hybrid is the cost involved. The cost of patent (direct fees only) is now more than $1,000, which is still much less than if you use a patent agent but still significant. But more importantly, commercial outfits (aka needing to sell plants at a profit) will probably not take a new seedling without re testing it under their own trialing protocols to make sure it works for them. So it will take at least another couple of years minimum before they reach a decision, and then a couple more to build up enough inventory to release it to an ever shrinking market for roses. As David said, dealing with universities, all of which are under pressure to generate more revenues, makes the process even more difficult as we often deal with unrealistic expectations from the administration in charge of managing the IP. They are more used to deal with chemical compounds or pharmaceutical molecules which can generate much more royalties than plants. That being said, because that’s who we are and what we do, we are now working with more amateur breeders than ever, but with realistic expections on both sides.

Finally, you only have one year from the day of first release to apply for a patent, not 3. And the patent attorneys at the US patent office know how to use Google, so I can only advise all of you to be really prudent if you want to patent any of your seedlings. They would now consider a picture with the name posted on this forum as the release date, no matter if the roses has been sold or not. This is a change in the patent law that was voted earlier this year and will take effect in 2013.

15

Thanks for clarifying that!

16

Is a code or a number considered a name?

Neil

17

Neil, what a good point, Lawyers might find that something to haggle over. In my opinion, you might have something with that. If we did not place a photo/picture could it be done.

18

Does this law apply to USA only, or internationally as well?

19

Jacques,

I guess I’m a bit confused about the information you provided–especially as it pertains to the RHA Newsletter and also the Forum. Many here post pictures on the Forum of new seedlings along with the stated parentage for the sheer pleasure of sharing our individual results with others who share our passion for roses and without any thought as to how the seedling will perform over the long haul. Others provide seedling pictures to illustrate Newsletter articles. While I understand that the possibility of most of these actually growing to a plant worthy of patenting is a long shot, are members compromising their ability to patent that plant (possibly years down the road) by sharing a photo or a parentage with the RHA? If we have to start censoring our work and stop providing any photos or information about our individual efforts then I think that the Newsletter and the Forum would begin to suffer, but I suppose we should all be aware of the possible ramifications of being open with what we are doing. So I guess my question is how cautious do we have to be?

20

Good Morning Everyone!

In reference to Julie’s statement about the ramifications:

I think we’re okay as long as we are keeping it vague. Notice when I mentioned (in the first post) about the ‘Perfume Delight’ seedling, I only gave you the female and didn’t mention any other info about. I didn’t tell you the exact cross, the year it was crossed, the alias it goes by, etc…

I would think that posting pictures of seedlings would we fine too. We all want to share our newly growing seedlings after all!! We all have questions/comments about the way traits are inherited, the way something is growing, etc…

After all, if I post a picture of a flat of seedlings, all with the same parentage, who’s to say any of those would make it to a phase that I want to release it. And then, if we do release something with the same parentage, it may of just as easily been the same/similar cross from a previous or future year.

So, I certainly hope that my initial post has not scared everyone into not posting pictures and sharing! That would make me feel horrible!!! I fully intend to share photos with everyone, as soon as I feel like I have something to share!!! Hopefully soon. :wink:

I’ll also keep on asking what others are using and letting others know what we use.