I have several healthy,cane hardy (5b), but non-recurrent seedlings from various backgrounds that might be precursors to hardier climbers. A couple also have rather stiff canes that create an awkward appearance. They need a partner that would impart more lax canes, retain the double flowers, as well as provide a possibility for bloom on new wood. I have several explorers, as well as seedlings from L83, William Booth & possibly George Vancouver, but I’m considering another explorer. I like John Davis because it also works on diploids, but I wonder what Louis Jolliet has to offer. Are lax canes just a matter of breeding roulette, or is there a parent that would be more likely to impart that trait?
Hi Lydia,
That’s a great question. ‘John Davis’ is an amazing rose. It is triploid, tends to provide some seedlings that rebloom well and also can produce plants with relatively long and lax canes. Most all of my GV seedlings have been pretty stiff caned. Some William Booth seedlings have been kind of lanky and tall in the right cross and if you want lax canes suggest you’d probably be happier using it than GV. You can get some larger and double blooms with William Booth with the right mating. I have some I like with Hawkeye Belle x William Booth. I haven’t done much with Louis Jolliet, but the ops I raised from it seemed stiff. I have a cross of Little Darling x William Baffin that has lanky canes and reblooms some in summer. Little Darling can give climbers that are lanky pretty easily, but isn’t very hardy itself. This hybrid is relatively hardy.
I haven’t tried Quadra as a parent, but it is relatively very lanky compared to many of the Explorer climbers and sprawls somewhat close to the ground here. Maybe it can give you what you are looking for.
I have usually avoided close relations of Little Darling because it seems to pass on blackspot proneness readily. I think it was great for its time, especially since its color range is immense, but that there are better choices now.
So far, in pure aesthetics, I have been impressed with John Cabot and Summerwind. I love the way John Cabot slinks. This combined with its smooth foliage gives it a very slick appearance in the garden. I hope someone makes future hybrids with it. Summerwind just does not stop blooming. Its polyantha heritage has served it well – but without the nasty mildew or scentless blooms.
The first time I saw Quadra, I knew it was good. But I also knew it was very unknown then. I hope someone makes good use of it as well.
For what it is worth, Carefree Sunshine has a climbing sport – much like the majority of the roses in its lineage have climbing sports, lol. (Gold Badge, Rise n Shine, First Prize, etc) It lacks the nasty blackspot though. Yellow Brick Road, which is a descendant of CS and Flower Carpet Yellow, has an impressive branching habit and superior fragrance/bloom form/foliage to CS. Being close to both Rosa wichurana and Carefree Sunshine, I am sure that it could also produce climbing and lanking types. I have no idea regarding its ploidy but its pollen is fully fertile on tetraploids.
I’ve been reading Dr. Svejda’s book & she says that Quadra is a full seedling of Frontenac. Good to know that John Cabot can slink. I will keep putting it on little roses. The best seedling I have from it is big, angular & stiff. Perhaps Quadra is the way way to go. I also have Carefree Sunshine, which is a tiny little thing next to the very stiff and expanding Prairie Celebration. I have a seedling by it (CS) with my very lax (Belle de Crecy x Flower Carpet Red), both mom & baby very clean in a very unusual spotty summer, but no blooms yet from the offspring. I’ve also used CS on Prairie Celebration. We’ll see where that takes us.
The seedling I’m particularly concerned with is a very thorny, healthy. pod fertile (Chianti x White Nights from Poulsen), unusual in that my Chianti is currently completely leaf free & is not cane hardy most years, neither was White Nights. This was the one seedling that survived and prospered. I guess the stiff growth & the thorniness came from kordessii in White Nights. My survivors tend to be non recurrent. Doesn’t that say something? I’ll have to check out Summerwind & see what name it goes by in these parts. Flower Carpet Yellow doesn’t do that well in my garden. Kordes’ Sunny Rose, a paler colour, is a better spreader. I also have a little shrub from Swany that might do the job. There’s also a whole mess of vigorosas - Lowe’s is just up the street.
I’ve been coveting Yellow Submarine for years, but the one nursery that offers Ping Lim’s roses has a very narrow selection & it never changes from year to year. That said, I’m really impressed with My Hero. Perhaps that’s the rose to use & aim for breeding smaller shrubs.
About the the George Vancouver seedling. It is fragrant & has markedly smoother canes than other explorers, the weakness being petals that don’t stand up well to rain. In the past it absolutely refused any pollen I put on it & would only set the occasional hip. This year I put it on everything. Everything seemed to take well, and the plant itself set many hips that are yet to ripen. They are likely selfs as it’s surrounded by diploids. Unbelievable.
Thanks for the great ideas. It’s given me a lot to think about for next year. I’m not limited by ploidy. Something always seems to work out.
I got John Cabot because it was promoted as being a large shrub or small climber, but mine is neither a climber nor a large shrub. This year it
I like the size of My Hero, possibly because so many of my own seedlings are so huge. I find it astounding that it continues to produce new blooms while it is growing hips. For me the repeat is excellent. I’m also happy that it has leaves that are still fresh. When do MH hips mature? Mine are still shades of green & the weather has started to cool. It seems that most of the hips are from pollen of the George Vancouver seedling. Hopefully some will be fragrant & the size will be tamed. The past winter was warm so I’m not sure of it’s hardiness. I can’t count on cane retention on anything that isn’t explorer or OGR.
Carefree Beauty has the potential to produce large shrubs that have hardier canes than the parent, even with hybrid tea pollen. I had one offspring that was continuously in bloom off second year wood, even with hips on it. Never knew such a thing was possible. CB stops blooming for me when it starts forming hips.
I think shrub or climber with respect to the larger explorers are marketing terms. It says nothing about the plant. My sister has William Baffin growing in clay & it’s basically a tree.
Lydia that is a very nice trait when something can bloom even if it is not dead headed. Some roses you would think they were once bloomers if you never deadheaded them. I have noticed the same thing with CB in that it stops blooming when loaded with hips. In this condition I usually only see a few sporadic blooms in late fall.
That
Quadra seems to be the best of the explorers - continuous well formed blooms, bright color. Only downside is a thorny haphazard growth habit; attempts to pillar them were a complete disaster. No Quadra seedlings have been worth keeping, but should be tried again. Pollen available next spring if anyone wants; op seeds available now.
Paul
Is Morden Centennial healthy for you? Or is it just your seedling? I’m finding the Parklands somewhat susceptible to spotting. I’m gardening in sand which some varieties don’t like.
Lydia,
I
Yeah, I think Yellow Flower Carpet is meh but what I specifically like about YBR is that it captures all of the positive qualities of both parents.
I think John Cabot is likely to either make a good f2 parent or f1 is used in veyr wise crosses. I can see how its floppiness can be troublesome in many hybrids. I can also see how it could be a potential attribute in other hybrids.
Dave - thorny haphazard is what I’m trying to get away from in my own explorer seedlings. I was hoping to find a pollen parent that was more civilized. I guess to get that would entail either throwing out a lot of seedlings or else breeding with less hardy roses. I notice that Fourth of July produces offspring with lax canes, but only about 1/4 of the offspring are healthy.
Mike - I don’t find my John Cabot floppy. or rather it’s floppy in a good way for my garden. I’m actually looking for floppy. I pruned it severely this year & its stems are holding up fine with the newer branches cascading down. Its also blooming in the company of hips. I have a seedling from it with very pretty flowers, but this year all it wants to do is produce leaves. The momma was a very well behaved floribunda, but this rose is a monster that gets cane die back because it’s not quite hardy enough for its type. Also it doesn’t want to breed in the years its actually producing flowers. The problem with the explorers is finding suitable cane hardy mates. I think it may do well with some of the ground covers, but I’ve noticed that some of those cute little vigorosas have very sharp thorns.
At one place in Portland, John Cabot is used instead of Rhodies, which I thought was clever. Theyre pruned knee high in winter and they grow upward, arching outward during the growing season. It was pretty clever of an idea that worked out well. And it was better than seeing yet another Bonica 
It’d be cool to bring that deep pink color some electric tone. I think something like [Carefree Marvel x (Flower Carpet Scarlet x John Cabot)] would be useful in the modern landscape.
Unfortunately there isn’t a purveyor of Meilland roses in Ontario. We’re pretty much limited to what Pickering Roses brings in. I think that there are more adventurous nurseries in other provinces, but they do not communicate with Ontario. While in Vancouver, I saw plantings along the sidewalks of little shrubs that looked a lot like Astronomia. They were spectacular.
The big boxes are unpredictable. Last year Lowe’s had Flower Carpets. This year it was Vigorosas. I think they’re supplied by Pan Am. Canadian Tire (that’s the name) used to have some of the older Meillands, but now all I see are the more boring Knockouts. Right now I’m looking for mates for my hardy non remontant way too tall seedlings. Carefree Celebration is new for me, as is Prairie Joy. Both set op hips. That may be the way to go. I’m also thinking of Running Maid. Hoping for Morden Belle to make it to Ontario.
There are other options. For example, Palatine sells interesting varieties. But, also, if you request Flower Carpets through Lowes or Home Depot, it is likely that they have an active SKU for it, so it could be possible to get them without resorting to something like Hortico.
Oh, Im glad you mentioned Canadian sources. I just looked at Palantines and theyre going to be carrying some of Jalbert’s work, which includes Royal City Rose. Its a Livin Easy/Pretty Lady hybrid. I have no clue how hardy it is there but it looks like it carried over the dominant Pretty Lady foliage over.
I’m very well aquainted with Palatine. I used to order from their predecessor when I lived in Toronto. Many moons ago I placed an order with Hortico & was appalled that they didn’t have my roses bagged when I went to pick them up. They went looking for each rose individually. That’s the last time I did business with them.
Unfortunately my garden isn’t suited to tender roses. The ones that survive are special & they tend to be long lived. I’m gardening in former bog that is little better than Lake Ontario sand. It’s not so much the climate as the soil. At one time the beds were raised, now I simply plant my roses in compost. There’s a long list of hybrid teas & their kin that have met their doom in my garden, hence my interest in hardier roses. The seedlings that make it in my garden are tough critters. I can only plant minis that are grafted, as their natural roots don’t survive spring.
Yeah, I understood about the cold scenario. I didnt know about the soil though.
Any time I order through Hortico, I plan on a gamble. My gambling has had a bout a 75% success ratio. I got lucky. I am glad I tried cause I would have never experienced several cultivars that I love.
With soil like that, it seems that a roses root type is just as important as other survival traits.
I have a feeling that canina/rubiginosa and rugosa types (like even Albas, etc) would be one of the few species even remotely adaptable to that soil type. Wichurana could be useful too – maybe.
I forgot to add another option – getting pollen from your American buddies. Maybe this way one can sneak in some new colors, branching habit, etc into Canadian hybrids without negaively affecting cold tolerance if melded in fluidl through several generations of work.