Don,
The subject of eliminating suckers, rhizomes and stolons did come up in another thread:
http://rosebreeders.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=54961&p=60140&hilit=stolons#p60140
My experience is that you can eliminate suckering in one generation by crossing to a non-suckering plant. R.blanda suckers profusely but when I crossed it with the Polyantha Marie Pavie, the one seedling I kept doesn’t sucker at all. That’s not to say it will happen with every cross or every seedling but it can happen.
Joe wrote: “Personally I would be happy if my crosses using R. carolina as a seed parent showed a heavier influence from R. carolina…what’s not to like about those characteristics? Just get rid of the suckering and add remontancy and you’d have a spectacular garden rose.”
Here is an idea I like a lot.
Quite feasible for younger and persistent breeders by a lesser used breeding strategy I do not remember the name that at each other generation goes back (totally or not) to the initial parents like: (F2xB1 to species parent) x (F2xB1 to recurrent parent) and so on introgressing various features besides recurrence while selecting for preserved species characters…
Some species roses, like a good specimen of R. carolina, appear to me to have only one characteristic preventing them from being a marketable landscape plant: the suckering. Hardiness, disease resistance, healthy and glossy foliage, fragrant blossoms, ornamental hips. Pierre says that suckering can be taken care of in the first generation, but I don’t know what plant I could cross it with that wouldn’t dilute the hardiness. Open to ideas. I haven’t grown or used Lilian Gibson, but I know Bailey Nurseries uses her as a rootstock for hardy roses such as Persian Yellow that need to be grafted…therefore she is probably low thorn and non-suckering.
Suckering is also a variable characteristic within a population of self-pollinated species roses, at least juvenile suckering. Some of my one year seedlings had frighteningly long underground shoots, while others didn’t. I don’t know how practical it would be to keep selecting in that direction, however, since the characteristic might take more than a year to manifest in most seedlings.
Edit: I didn’t see the previous three posts when I wrote this one.
When I crossed R. virginiana with a Kordes rose, 50% 0f them formed some sort of suckering habit. By the F2 stage this seemed not to occur, but this is my experience with only one species type.
Warren
None of the Hugonis hybrids I have raised are suckering nor have suckered. Probably a third of the Fedtschenkoana hybrids have not suckered, with the other two-thirds ranging from minor to invasive suckering.
That’s a tough one Joe. The Canadian roses I’ve grown don’t sucker and they wouldn’t dilute the hardiness too much. The Mordens generally aren’t that hardy and don’t have very good disease resistance. But two I have grown that have decent hardiness and disease resistance are Cuthbert grant and Prairie Joy. The Explorers have better hardiness and disease resistance than the Mordens but generally are quite large and not the best landscape plants. But two of the smaller ones like Frontenac, Champlain might be a good choice.
Thanks, Paul.I love Prairie Joy and have used it a lot. My beef with it is that it doesn’t pass on the reblooming characteristic the majority of the time and it’s a little frustrating both as a seed and pollen parent. A successful cross with R. carolina could result in some very lovely hardiness and foliage, but the odds would be against the plant having inherited any potential to pass on remontancy. I still might try it. Champlain, Frontenac, and Cuthbert Grant have performed only OK here, but maybe the outcross with a species rose would renew their vigor.
Have you thought of applejack ?
Maybe both hardy and thornless, repeat might be more difficult in first generation…
I didn’t know that about Prairie Joy. I’ve only used it a few times myself. I used it’s pollen on two plants last year and the deer ate all the hips on one of them. But I do have a number of seedlings for the other cross. That plant is the Showy Pavement x R.blanda which gets quite large, suckers profusely and is a once bloomer. So it’ll be interesting to see what the seedlings look like when they get older. I also used Cuthbert Grant on SP x Rb two years ago. Those seedlings survived the past albeit mild winter better that CG did. Only one bloomed this year so far. Neither Prairie Joy or Cuthbert Grant were very vigorous in my garden.
Both Frontenac and Champlain are a little more vigorous in my garden than the PJ and CG are, Champlain more so than Frontenac. Champlain usually dies back to the snow line but rebounds well. Whereas Frontenac is hardier and usually suffers less dieback the Champlain. It’s also the healthiest of the four I’ve mentioned, but I agree it could use more vigor. I’ve made numerous crosses with both of these and many of the seedlings are hardier and more vigorous than they are. Three years ago I made the cross Tuscany Superb x Champlain and have three seedlings left. Two of the seedlings had no dieback and the third had only 25% dieback last winter compared to Champlain dying back to the crown and TS with only 6” of good wood.