Hello all,
I’m trying to create my own rootstock supply (R. multiflora seedlings) to use for grafting, by planting seeds and creating “maidens.” I’ve picked some 500+ seeds from wild R. multiflora sources. I also harvested a few hips taken from some R. multiflora rootstock sold by Wisconsin Roses. The seeds from the Wisconsin Roses’ R. multiflora all seem to have germinated, and most died before getting established. This is from my error, as the root systems got all tangled up in the coffee filter I used during stratification. Not one wild Multiflora seed has germinated yet. All of the R. Multiflora seeds have been exposed to the identical conditions. I probably will experiment later on with some embryo extraction(s).
I also harvested a few hips from what I believe is some wild R. Wichuriana. These seeds seem to be germinating on a regular basis and starting to take off. Can these seedlings be used for rootstock instead of R. multiflora? Does anyone have any experience using R. wichuriana this way? Will it work? The idea is to create no- to extremely-low-cost rootstock supply for use within one- to two-year time frame?
Andy
Just based on the growth rates of both wichurana and multiflora plants here (from seed and cuttings) my multiflora seems to grow faster than the wichurana producing stems of graftable diametre in 12 months. I germinated a stack of multiflora seeds from a commerical multiflora understock I have and selected one that I thought was more vigorous than the rest. It was planted in the ground in the the autumn (fall) of 2010. The plant is now 2m high and wide with at least 50 basal stems up to 12mm thick. My wichurana cuttings have grown single stems up to 50cm long this season. I’m guessing they are going to need a lot more time to establish than the multiflora needed.
Wichurana should easily make a good rootstock. Dr. Huey is a Wichurana hybrid. I have a large number of cuttings from 0-47-19 seedlings rooting right now out back. They are rooting quickly, far more so than the Fortuniana struck before these were. Unless you need a wholesale type run of them, why not plant a few mother plants for cuttings each year? It should be easy to produce a ton of suitable sized cuttings from a mature plant, again, unless you need hundreds each year.
Kim,
Rooting cuttings is by far the weakest part of my rose-growing exploits. I have tried for years (and will continue to try) with only a success rate of about 1%. This is not good enough to meet my expectations, and I keep delaying my plans year after year because of this lack of success. Unfortunately, most of the other rosarians in my local society have similar success rates in rooting cuttings, and aren’t able to help me figure out what I’m doing wrong. The only real success I’m having has been grafting to Multiflora seedlings. I’m looking to expand on these successes, so that I can multiply the roses I need to. Currently, I’m looking to start about 100 rootstocks (25 or so for my own use this year, 50 for use in the Roger Williams Park Garden, and 25 extras as backups). I am also always looking to expand my knowledge and understanding of all aspects of the rose, and having a virus-free and yearly available rootstock supply is on my list of rose knowledgeable items I want to learn how to achieve.
Andy
Andy,
Are you cold or warm stratifying your R.multiflora seeds?
George,
They went through a period of cold stratification. Currently they are in a cold cellar (40-45 degrees) that has a fireplace which warms them to about 60-65 degrees every time it is lit (3 times a week or so).
Andy
Oh, I see.
Last year I attempted to do as you are with seedling R.multiflora. In one batch of OP R.multiflora seed, nearly every seed out of around ten or so was found to have a grub inside it, which had replaced the embryo…this is what the situation looked like:
Sooooo… I am really hoping you don’t also have the same sort of grub trouble with your wild R.multiflora seed.
I think rootstock R.multiflora seedlings are a fabulous way to go, if you can get enough seed to do this. I am currently also building up numbers of such seedling rootstock!!
Let us know how it turns out for you, best of luck!
Andy,
Rooting cuttings is my success story. Most of my experience doing it has been in Virginia, Zn7. I realize RI is probably a zone or 2 colder. Have yet to try budding and grafting and my OP seed germination is always iffy at best. Damping off seems to be the biggest problem for me and I do use lots of perlite and all perlite for the top inch.
I have been to the Roger Williams garden about 3-4 years ago. The rose garden was LOVELY and all of you who care for it are to be commended. It was nice to actually see a section for Brownell’s because though I grew up reading about them, catalogue pictures were all I had to go by.
If you would like,send me your email and I’ll email you a document I made for the rosarian who is in charge of the rose garden at the Lewis Ginter Botanical Garden here in Richmond, VA. Have been using this method since I was taught it by a member of the Richmond Rose Society back in 2001. I think half of my roses are cuttings I took and rooted from his garden.
Jim Provenzano
jprov at comcast period net
Jim,
Thanks for he compliments about the garden. Taking care of it with my society has given me a new outlook on growing sustainable roses, and is partially (if not fully) responsible for my staying with my rose hybridizing through all of my trials and failed experiments. The garden hasn’t been sprayed in years, and is doing remarkably well. The healthiest section of the garden by far is the Brownell bed of roses. These roses were supplied by Dr. Brownell’s granddaughter from the original, virus-free stock. There are even roses growing there that were never introduced, and are so rare, that only a few gardens in the world have access to them.
I would love to discover a successful method for rooting cuttings. I am a big own-root guy who thinks that roses should be grown in their own roots whenever possible (except the Brownells - they grow much differently in their own roots and should be grafted on Multiflora). I’ll send you my email address in a private message.
Andy
George,
That looks like a very frustrating situation you experienced with your Multiflora seeds. I hope you were able to overcome it and get the seedlings you needed. With any luck, I’ll still have enough time to get these seeds germinated, and growing well enough to graft some roses come July/August. Maybe I might even try my hand at some embryo extraction? I’ll keep you posted.
Andy
Hi Andy,
Good R.multiflora seed should be very easy to get great results from IME, just as you got with your first batch.
Lately I am getting my R.multiflora seed from my local rose grower. I did an embryo culture just on a very few of them to check if the seed was ok, as the hips were still green, and also for a bit of fun (and it seems ok so far). The rest of the R.multiflora seed I am going to germinate the conventional way, not by embryo culture, because it it sooooooo much easier to do (like a gazillion times easier!!!).
I read somehwere that R.multiflora seed might not benefit from cold stratification, so I am just going to plant this seed in perlite in polystyrene cups. I have had real horror stories with soil-based germination media containing hungry grubs, so I am never going to use such media again for my germinations (this recently cost me some very very valuable seedlings, on a catastrophic scale).
Good luck!
ON rooting cuttings, a couple observations.
Don’t use rich media. For many plants it works better to be somewhat nutrient starved rather than get salt-burned. Lots of peat, sand, perlite, vermiculite and a little loam.
Generally fall cuttings are easier, maybe sugar content is higher, or days are getting short, I’m not sure. But that’s when I have better luck.
Inside under lights is more reliable. I use continuous fluorescent in the basement. Five cuttings per l lb cottage cheese container. Moist, with a plastic vegetable bag over it. Allow 3 leaves on a 5 leaf cutting, try some rooting hormone powder. I get 3-4 to take off within a month for most except Austrian Copper and the like. It works from August on, so long as the leaves are not frozen too hard.
Maybe the types you are crossing are in the hard to root category. I don’t think it’s your relatively mild climate to blame.
Good to hear someone else does rooting in basement under lights. Works well for me.
don’t laugh, I’m a novice, but I have used New Dawn as rootstock a good few times (I had a load of cuttings and it was for practicing budding at college) - anyway - they were decent stocks.
new dawn ought to be fine but rather a pain in the thumbs to bud. I used therese bugnet successfully for prairie star. It did just as well on that as on Dr H. FWIW. New dawn is one I’ve rooted until late november (after a hard frost or three) as cuttings with leaves on. This winter I’m experimenting with the R.T. damp paper callousing method, leaves removed, then planted warm under lights, vs cold in greenhouse. By May I’ll have some conclusions.
I’ve received R. Persica budded to Silver Moon and found it to root exceptionally easily and accept a wide spread of scions. I have some wrapped at the moment and it is callusing as the plain Wichurana and the 0-47-19 hybrid did.
I’d imagine that a grafted Rosa persica would be able to withstand more soil type ranges, as well as cultral ranges. I also imagine that the smaller asian ramblers would be better than multiflora, dr huey, canina, etc. given the nature of Rosa persica.
Kim, did you mean that Silver Moon was a great rootstock, or R. persica? S.M. certainly roots easily and its tougher than nails so long as the temps don’t get below 0 F.
I’m sorry Larry, I did mean Silver Moon as the root stock. Persica didn’t last long at all, unfortunately.
Hello all,
Roses sometimes amaze me. I one month’s time I’ve had 140+ Multiflora seeds germinate (30% rate with more on the way). It looks as though I’ll have enough seedlings to use this year (as long as they get large enough to use by July).
I have a question about rose seeds’ germination. Why is it that seeds such as R. wichuriana, ‘Abigail Adams,’ ‘Metis,’ R. multiflora, R. rugosa, etc. appear to germinate very easily, with almost no effort, and at times you get “too many” germinations. But, other seeds from other roses (treated in the identical manner) don’t germinate at all? In the past, I have gotten extremely good germination results from ‘Carefree Beauty,’ but this year only one seed has germinated so far from one of my crosses (‘Carefree Beauty’ x ‘Chihuly’)? It also appears that there are numerous different processes that people use in their germination - cold-stratify only, warm-stratify first, no stratification, warm-stratify only, etc., etc., etc.? Everyone appears to have his/her own way of germination that works for them? I know that the genetics of the roses involved enter into the reason(s), but why is there such a difference? Are others are getting the same type of inconsistencies in their germinations?
Andy