Anyone ever try this one? Does any one know of a source in the U.S.? I only see sources in Germany and Denmark on hmf.
I would like to create a modern rose that produces clusters like this one does. Can anyone think of other varieties out there that might produce clusters like this one does?
See the pictures on hmf here:
How did you stumble upon this rose? It really is unusual.
I noticed that a couple of the pictures were posted by Robert Rippetoe who used to be a member but I don’t think is any more. He mentions that he got his plant from Joan Monteith who I believe is still a member but I haven’t seen her post on the forum in a while. Also, another picture was taken at the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden. Perhaps one of our California members is close enough to the garden to get you some pollen. One thing to keep in mind is that the references mention this is a member of the Caninae section so it will have unbalanced meiosis, something to consider when making crosses with it.
Interesting reading Paul, I was fascinated by it look and its bloom formation. If indeed, it is Canina like in its characteristics, crosses could be achieved using Polyanthus, Teas, Chinas and Noisettes. These types of crosses would not benefit those living in those zones below 7.
Warren,
I referenced Modern Roses 9 and it states that R.webbiana and its allies are diploids from the cinnamonae section. That means it might be easier to work with than if it were a dog rose. It’s in the same section as R.rugosa and R.blanda, so it might cross readily them and it could produce very interesting seedlings.
Paul I think its earlier classification was that of the Webbiana clan. I found this and there is also other references supporting this as well. [From article “Chromosome studies and evolution in Rosa” by G. D. Rowley, Vol. 37, pp. 45-52:]
Cytological study of Boulenger’s Rosa nanothamnus …shows it to be a tetraploid of the canina-type, not a diploid as was previously imagined (fig. 5). Boulenger…cites a distribution range for nanothamnus from Asia Minor to Western China, extending to Sze-Chuan where Rosa chinensis also occurs…] . I would treat it as a Canina.
cheers Warren
So R.webbiana mirophylla is not a valid synonym for this rose. That’s too bad it’s not in the cinnamonae section, it might be fun to work with anyway.
I came across it several years ago on hmf and when I was updating my wish list yesterday it triggered my memory. I think 2 years ago I went through most of the species roses listed on hmf and selected the top 20 or so to try and obtain. A few others that are hard to get - R. alabukensis, R. ecae, and R. hemisphaerica rapini are three on the list that I think will be almost impossible to get. Still I will try and get them and experiment a little.
I did read the following note in the references tab:
The Nature and significance of the system of Inheritance In Rosa nanothamnus (Rosaceae)
Article (magazine) (1975) Page(s) 59-66.
Abstract from Blackwell Synergy website: “Rosa nanothamnus has uncertain affiliations within the genus Rosa. However, evidence is presented that its system of inheritance is of the distinctive and singular type found in the section Caninae .It is considered that this complex system is unlikely to have arisen purely by fortuitous hybridization but is, in fact, highly evolved. Species which share the canina-type system of inheritance are interpreted as a closely related group. Rosa nanothamnus is therefore placed in section Caninae.
Analysis of chromosomes at pachytene in meiosis in Rosa nanothamnus showed that there were 7 bivalents and 14 univalents. It is suggested that the genes which restrict chromosome pairing in this species, and presumably in the Caninae generally, affect synapsis of chromosomes rather than the formation of chiasmata.”
I don’t fully grasp exactly what they are saying (bivalents?/univalents? huh?) here. But I figured this was a discussion on the meiosis issues with the caninae, since I was already aware of the uneven meiosis (thank you high school biology teachers for at least letting me know what meiosis is). Please correct me if I am wrong. I would like to know what they mean by ‘uncertain affiliations.’
I would like to work with it regardless of these issues though - if I fail, I fail - but it would be fun to see if I can get something out of it. If any one has access to pollen or OP hips or even a sucker (cutting if will root) Please PM me. This is one species that I would like to try out.
I like the unopened look too
cool! I just read the article mentioned by Warren - “Chromosome studies and evolution in Rosa” by G. D. Rowley - and it actually made a lot of sense to me. I think I know what a bivalent is now.
Andre from what I can gather using the Septet formula. A Canina type rose may have a septet formula of AACD for example, these are split into the ovaries and pollen as this ACD + A. During pollination the two A’s come together as AA (the Bivalents) the C and D are the Univalents. I saw a term they use for these univalents as, cytoplasmic chromosomes.
cheers Warren
I think that folks in Scandanavia, particularly the group headed by Nybom, have studied the caninae meiosis by modern molecular methods. They come to much the same conclusions as mentioned though perhaps the septet theory per se is not an accurate description of the overall evolution/devolution of roses. Several years back I think I wrote a couple articles in the newsletter reviewing the work of students working on PhD degrees with Nybom.
Larry Davis