R. bracteata: hard to work with?

I’m a bit late to the party when it comes to what is best to work with, but is R. bracteata straight species difficult to breed with?

After seeing your thread Kim on Gardenweb after reading Ann’s wish for more people to breed with it due to it’s health and the key tidbit:

“mites that spread RRD don’t recognize the leaves as roses.”

I’m intrigued.

Coming from Ann, the RRD expert Queen I’m convinced I need this rose on my property to play with. RDD is a big problem here, I’ve yet to see it in my yard but I’ve seen it on multiflora in woodlines.

Question is it difficult to work with the same way say albas are difficult to work with or is it (no pun intended) a whole other creature? Kim mentoned mildew was an issue with seedlings

I have a few cross ideas that may be really good/not produce once bloomers.

Being said my parents own two acres I think I can afford some room for it. We have some ugly leggy privet we can let it gobble up…or our fence.

Anyone know where it’s available? I know HMF said Vintage had it but it’s not in stock.

same goes for the bracteata hybrid alba odorata, anyone ever trying using that or is it so double it has neither anthers nor pollen?

[size=medium]Max,

There are two tough things about bracteata: wicked thorns, and buds that go from closed to fully open in a very short time–and dump pollen on themselves before they open.

The leaves are very attractive, and so are the flowers.

Since it’s diploid, you may want to stay in the diploid range with mates, or take your chances. Both may work, but diploid will produce more seeds. Getting repeat blooming will be a challenge.

Should be fun, anyway. Give it a go. But you probably shouIdn’t expect instant results. I started messing with it last year. I can surely send you a piece of it if you can’t find one accidentally some day when walking in shorts. It does well in zones 7b and higher. Where it’s happy, it grows remarkably well. Some consider it almost invasive.

Peter[/size]

I’m counting on its being invasive. I planted three of them from Cliff down the hill to keep the troll in the hole on his side of the wall. I also have the “runt of the litter” Clinophylla X Bracteata cross from Viru’s seeds. I know from experience that the Clino-Bract tip roots easily and both of them exhibit the “Bracteata curse”. ANY atom of root left in the ground regenerates the plant in no time. Both are horriffically prickly and completely clean here. Peter would have a much better idea of cold hardiness than I do. I can supply cuttings of both, maybe a rooted piece of the Clino-Bract. I found one and sent it to Philip recently and I’ve dug out regenerated plants from the roots I tried to dig fully out when I moved the can it grew in.

As for being difficult to work with, this is from notes I took on visits with Ralph and posted to HMF on the Muriel page (which I also have if you’re interested).

"Ralph Moore stated he created 700 seeds from the cross of Bracteata X Guinee. Only 7 seedlings germinated. Only two he felt were actual hybrids. Muriel was the only one of the 2 he kept for further work. He stated Muriel passes on good foliage and that in the first generation, all seedlings will be climbers.

He also stated this is best used as a pollen parent."

I can tell you it breeds pastel, washed out colors much like Wichurana does. MANY of his Bracteata seedlings were enormous, terribly thorny, once (if at all) flowering, rampant climbers. MANY of them suffered from rust problems, not so much in his climate, but definitely in mine. The two best of the repeat flowering seedlings he raised for rust resistance are Out of the Night and Out of Yesteryear. I’ve only maintained Muriel, and the two I’ve just mentioned. The only other one with any real rust resistance here was Star Dust.

I was pleased to find that TAMU has Huntington Red Bracteata, the Gruss an Teplitz X Muriel climber Ralph donated to The Huntington for fund raising. Perhaps, if it seems interesting to you, Natalie might be coaxed into sharing cuttings of it. it is darkly colored and marvelously fragrant. However, in the intense, high heat here, we used to call it “Old Liver” due to the faded flower color. It is the darkest colored Bracteata hybrid I ever saw at Sequoia.

I don’t think I would try Alba Odorata. Tea crosses tend to come with their own sets of problems, infertility being one. If you’re going to engineer a line, don’t base it on things which may dilute the hardiness, reduce the fertility and potentially increase disease issues. What to use instead? I dunno. I do have seeds under soil of Blue for You which should have been pollinated by the Clino-Bract seedling. We shall see.

Germinating bracteata abundant seeds is frustrating. Even waiting long result in very few seedlings.

Except one lot that came out of stratification as a messy stinking solid funghus mass.

First generation with both dips or tets all had low to no female fertility. Pollen is usually better and with one or two crosses you get recurrence and full fertility. Along are many strong if stiff wide plants with outstanding roots. Breed out spines and desease resistance not difficult…

My only knowledge of germination of R bracteata comes from the work of McCully who found that the achenes kept at room temp in cow manure (after passing through the cow) gave much better germ than those stored cold. There was a seasonality to the germ process with more in winter/spring than summer, even inside in a lab. Washed achenes on filter paper did very badly. I reported details in the RNA newsletter abt 3 yr ago. That’s one of the things that got me to trying nitrate. What is there to lose if you are starting at 2 % germ? But I must say that so far the seeds of a couple CV I put with composted cow manure (not the same as raw of course) aren’t doing anything yet. But we have months to go in the test, and I put them in the cold to match other treatments.

So perhaps any suggestions as to which bracteata descendant to possibly work with instead of straight species?

The idea of a RRD resistant rose is entirely too enticing. I do like the large center anemone style anther pom-poms on the species though.

Would an already created hybrid be as resistant? Wouldn’t it depend upon the genetics of what it’s hybridized with? What others are resistant to RRD you could breed with it and hope to achieve the desired cold hardiness? I don’t know. Here, as long as it doesn’t freeze at about 35F for a low and can tolerate extended periods of intense, laser beam, direct sun with near triple digits (probably a lot higher in the direct sun), it’s considered “hardy”.

Max this year I changed my normal Mermaid pollen source for another, low and behold the hips stuck and developed extraordinary well. The big test will be the viability of the seed. I think some times if you have a problem with pollen from a certain cultivar, try and source it from another which is growing in different growing conditions, I did and it stuck. It is half tea, so the results could throw anything , but I hope nice.

This Meramid pollen went on;

Wendy (schurman) X Abraham Darby

Wendy X Gold Bunny

Charles Austin X Unk HT (Bi Coloured)

All never looked back when pollen was applied.

The bract. hybrid I’m testing for Robert retained all of its foliage from last year, including the blackspot, lol. I think its Livin Easy X Precious Dream. It is cute, however.

I am not specifically sure that bracteata has a useful application where it is cold or dark. I did note that when I grew the species that it was tolerant of forgetful watering :slight_smile:

I’ve had three, one gallon Bracteata growing down on the lower part of the hill for a year now. I water them a couple of times during the hotter weather, allowing them to fend for themselves the rest of the time. There is very little ground water due to the granular texture of the soil and amazing gopher activity in the area. They’re growing like the weeds they are and flowered much of the summer. The rabbits are even leaving them alone!

Larry, at the risk of being a little bit too disgusting, if it is the nitrates in manure that encourage germination, you might consider experimenting with manure from an animal with a higher protein intake.

Got a dog?

:wink:

I think that it is not so simple. We have to have aerobic conditions to convert ammonium to nitrate. That means a fairly well aerated dung. The high protein types have the bad habit of going anaerobic and what you get instead is methane production and denitrification. Very likely horse manure would be better than cow but I don’t know if they eat bracteata hips normally. I am working strictly from anecdotal information on this. Swine manure is another good candidate rather than dog, but again I don’t know if they eat the hips in nature. It could also be enzymes in the animals that digest cellulose. So ruminants like cows, or animals with a large cecum like horses (or perhaps rabbits) may be better than the single-stomach animals. Many great ecological experiments remain to be done. But this is really a Texas project. It’s too cold here for bracteata to over-winter.

Max, if it were me, I would use the Bracteata as pollen donor, and put the pollen on seed-fertile diploids in the first instance hoping that might maximise numbers of actual hybrids. Just my guess.

Oh, fine, Larry. Put it on us Texans to have to put on our sh*t-kicker cowboy boots, rustle up some spiny hips and have a go at it. :wink:

Your post does leave my pondering some questions, but I’m not really up to parsing the scatological distinctions between the offerings of various critters this morning.

We’ve got plenty of boots in KS, plus the animals. But we lack the bracteata. I was going from work of McCully who did his studies somewhere in TX. But from Peter Harris’ comments (on another thread?) maybe bracteata would survive here these days. I’ll have to look at the noxious weed distribution maps again.

Just found this info, these are the RRD resistant roses like bracteta

r. woodsi

r. setigera

r arkansana

r. blanda

r. californica

r. spinossima

r. carolina

r. paustris

r. bracteta

‘Mermaid’ however has been reported to not be resistant to rrd, probably due to the tea blood.

RRD ?

Rose Rosette Disease. Want some?

AHHHHHHHHHHHH NOPE. I tell you if Multiflora is mainly effected by this , it covers a very large number of rose cultivars which have multiflora in its original breeding. Nasty, Nasty. Looking at the growth, its almost like its been hit with an overdose of gibberellic acid. It sort of makes you wonder if the virus actually stimulates Gibberellic Acid production within the plant at the virus site , increasing the growth rates ?