Hello everyone! Good morning/afternoon/evening to all! I did happen to have some questions regarding rose classifications and types (specifically climbing roses) if anyone did happen to have an answer! I have looked up a good bit of information from seemingly trusted sources regarding the three classifications of roses (Old Garden Roses, Modern Garden Roses, and Wild/Species Roses). Within those classifications, it states that roses like climbers are apart of Modern Garden Roses, based on this link : https://www.jacksonandperkins.com/ultimate-guide-rose-types/a/types-of-roses/?srsltid=AfmBOoruLJDSY22iIj6ou_WRkbrNyyapOgiORdZKUwnqNxoRx_0V2jIM
However, it states that certain Old Garden Roses are types of Climbers, such as Bourbon Roses, Noisette Roses, etc. While searching up other information, it states that Climbers can fit into Old Garden Roses as well as the Modern Garden Roses. I would love to know how that is possible if someone happens to know! (Is it mainly to do with the breeding aspect? that seems to make the most sense, but I just wanna be 100 percent sure!)
Also, I was wondering how many “types” of climbers there happen to be. It seems when I look up that in the search bar, it just gives me the specific names of roses, not an actual type. However, when searching more, I’ve found that rambling roses and stiff-stemmed roses are considered actual "types” of climbing roses. So I wanted to ask are there any more official/actual types!
Very sorry for my lack of knowledge in the subject matter. I mainly am doing research to learn all I can, so I would very much appreciate the help/guidance if possible (or If I am wrong on anything I have stated thus far)! I hope everyone has a wonderful day/night!
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All roses come from species roses. Within the species there are climbing roses. Both old garden and modern do indeed have climbers. The terms old and modern is kind of arbitrary. As the beginning of “modern” roses was quite a long time ago a lot of them are quite old. I feel humans love to categorise and put things into boxes but classes of roses are rather more fluid than they seem. It is useful to know roughly what the classes are but know that rose company’s, experts and people from different countries rarely agree on rose categories. Use the website helpmefind and go onto advanced search and you can get a rough idea from selecting different groups. Some roses will have quite a few different origins and when you go to the comments you will see people disagree….. so yeah see them as guidelines
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@James_D Ahh I see! that is very interesting to hear! It seems like my research is going to be a little bit construed then hehe. Question if you don’t mind me asking/if you happen to know this partciular info: Do most people agree on Old Garden Roses and Modern Garden Roses timelines and their classifications? (What I mean by that, is do most people agree on the timelines of Old Garden Roses being Pre-1867 and Modern Garden Roses being Post-1867, or do people think its arbitrary like you stated, like they don’t really care much/agree on the history?) Also, thank you for answering my post, I really do appreciate it!
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I think those times are agreed. However, gallicas are old garden roses. But I can still breed a new one (is that still an old garden roses?). I can cross it with a modern rose and it will be Gallica hybrid…. How much percentage of “modern” rose do I need to make it so?. A lot of new roses are called shrub roses as they have such complex ancestry they don’t fit into any category. David Austin’s roses are known collectively as English roses… even though they vary massively and don’t have much English species roses involved in the mix…. Hybrid musk roses started from Rosa trier which is a multi flora hybrid… some is marketing… some is an attempt to organise the chaos. Classifications are helpful but know that sometimes they make sense and sometimes they don’t
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That makes sense! I kinda was under the impression that the old garden rose types were mainly classified as such by their ancestry, but I can see how breeding makes that thought kinda null/flawed. Thank you once again for the insight, as I would have been very stuck otherwise!
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Well yes… A Gallica rose is a species rose but that is still quite far from the class of Gallica hybrids in bloom form. An alba roses most likely parentage is a species from the canina family and the other the gallica. So all though most old garden rose groups are more simple hybrids than modern ones and easier to tell apart, it’s complex. The alba rose felicite Parmentier is also thought to have damask influence in its breeding but is still known as an Alba. Damask roses are a mix of Rosa Gallica x Rosa moschata X Fedtschenkoana. However many damasks or damasks perpetuals might have some Rosa chinensis in them. Some damask perpetuals are also Portland roses due to form. Portland roses were repeat roses that didn’t have Rosa chinensis in their ancestry or are sold as such. However a lot of Portland roses sold today almost certainly have Rosa chinensis in it. Basically know that some classes are quite accurate. You will get to be able to identify without seeing a name what’s in a certain class most of the time. But know they are normally more complex than our eyes would have us believe.
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oh wow, that’s very interesting! I unfortunately have never heard of some of these terms/roses listed, but I will look them up to learn more about them, thank you!
Becase pedigrees are so convoluted, and because it is more useful to the average gardener, modern classifications tend to be based (rather loosely) on the form or performance and anticipated use (as well as on marketing decisions) than anything else.
As a “for instance,” the tall lanky “Lavender Crush" evokes sone older classes but has been variably sold as both a stiff “climber” and a tall “shrub” rose depending on the market. (It probably achieves different sizes depending on climate.) St. Tropez is marketed as a Floribunda in the US, but a hybrid tea in France where it originated. (The floribunda class isn’t recognized in Europe.)
Old rose classifications were more likely to be lineage-related, and while there is generally a prescribed time break between old and modern, that was perhaps a tad capricious.
The species R. abyssinica forms a large shrub in the desert mountains where it is native, but given regular watering in a garden setting becomes a lanky climber, it appears.
I pay no head to the label, and research the pegigree, performance and esthetic to choose my roses.
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Oh wow, I never knew that regarding different countries and their own classifications! Thank you for letting me know! (Sorry for the delay in response btw!)
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Vintage Gardens was a remarkable repository of all things “old garden roses”, and their catalog was worth getting just as a resource. It included representative illustrations of archetypical architecture of an assortment of roses in each class.
I don’t know how much might be available online now, but here are the albas, for instance:
VGC_Albas.pdf https://share.google/GcaLbZFgO2caeSh5I
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oh wow! thank you for the information! I will look at it thoroughly as soon as I finish work today!
You might find they over-sell the virtues of all of thes for your climate (durned Californians can grow anything it seems!
)
The full pdfs from the catalog for each group can be found at the bottom of the respective pages: (I hadn’t realized this online resource existed before!)
The Collection - The Friends of Vintage Roses The Collection - The Friends of Vintage Roses
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Oo amazing! Thank you for this information! I would have never found it on my own!
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